Author Topic: Troubadour  (Read 3970 times)

CCM

  • Mook
  • *
  • Posts: 8
  • Gender: Male
  • IT'S JUST LIKE MY LIFE! ...in a way
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Troubadour
« on: August 07, 2013, 04:29:42 AM »
A troubadour making use of his Silver Tongue track

Troubadour
8
HP/level
8
skills
CHA
KOM
WIS
KDM

LevelMelodiesGenreSilver Tongue
1Monophony1
2Cool Under Pressure
3Disarming Talent
42
5Chatterbox
6Polyphony
73
8Sticks and Stones
9Joyful Noise
104
11Motormouth
12Chorus
135
14I Can't Hear You
15Pacify
166
17Won't Shut Up, Ever
18Ancient Music
197
20Haven't Said Enough

Troubadours are always quick to notice and react, so they always have Reflex as a good save. They run the gamut from hardy skalds to musical scholars, however, and this variety means they can choose either Fortitude or Will as their other good save. They are performers first and fighters second, so they have a Weak Base Attack Bonus, though the Flourish and Survivalism tracks grant them a Good one.

All troubadours are trained in the three social skills: Bluff, Intimidate, and Diplomacy. A troubadour may use her other five trained skills however she wishes, but without great social skills, what sort of a troubadour are you?

You can have the greatest adventure in the realm, but without a troubadour along, who will record it into history? Troubadours are those multi-talented folk who use their performative gifts, quick wits, and wide array of knowledge in equal measure to support their friends and allies. They create art with their every action, and long to see everything the world has to show them, incorporating each aspect of it into their work. This lust for adventure can get them into trouble, but they have more than a few tricks up their sleeves to get back out!

Party Role: Troubadours support their allies and hinder their enemies with a wide array of buffing and debuffing abilities. They can certainly defend themselves and even dish out the hurt on occasion, but a troubadour's first priority is his allies, not personal glory. They are not healers, however, and work best alongside a character who can directly heal HP, such as a shaman or a sage. Depending on personal style, a troubadour may get right up in the melee with the barbarians and paladins, stand back with the rangers to pepper the enemy with arrows and bullets, or stay with the shamans and tacticians on the backlines to offer magical artillery. This diversity is represented in a troubadour's Genre: troubadours who prefer stylish swordplay should choose the Flourish track, canny strategists with ranged weapons should choose the Survivalism track, and artists whose performance becomes a kind of magic should choose the Bel Canto track.

Troubadours in Your Game: While many troubadours are wandering bards or warrior-poets, that is not all they are. Anyone who makes art through sound is a troubadour, including musicians, orators, and poets. In a modern day game, a troubadour is as likely to be a classical musician as she is a rock star, rapper, or politician. If someone uses the power of sound to bolster and demoralize, he or she is a troubadour.

Multiclassing Tips: A troubadour who wants to up her ass-kicking power should consider the paladin's Smiting track, which synergizes incredibly with her KOM, though she should be careful not to replace her Genre track with it, as that is how she is getting a Good Base Attack Bonus in the first place. Contrariwise, a troubadour who wants to delve deeper into spellcasting would do well to consider the shaman's spellcasting track to augment his casting abilities, as the SAM is the same as his KDM. A shaman can also make great use of the troubadour's Melodies track as her Shaman's Path to complete her suite of supportive abilities. Troubadours with an occult bent could also use either of the Sage's Wrath options effectively; Just Blade even grants a Good Base Attack Bonus, so it can feasibly replace a troubadour's Genre.

Melodies
Melodies

A troubadour's primary ability is his music. Through it, he can employ a startling number of supportive powers to the entire battlefield, whether they be for strengthening his allies or hurting his enemies.

DC: 10 + 1/2 your level + CHA modifier

1st Circle - Monophony: You are skilled at chanting, and can bolster your allies with it. You gain both of the following [Songs]. You may begin to sing a [Song] as a move action, and continue to sing it as long as you spend a swift action each [Round] other than the [Round] you activate it to keep your concentration on it. You may only sing one [Song] at a time. You may end any song during your [Turn] as a free action. [Songs] affect each ally or enemy (depending on the song) within [Long] range, except those who cannot hear you due to being [Deafened] or a sound-dampening object such as a wall being between you. Abilities that take effect every turn a [Song] is in effect trigger their effects when you spend your action. Neither beginning to sing nor continuing to sing provoke attacks of opportunity.
   War Chantex: Your chanting inspires allies to make the most of their strength. Allies gain a  damage bonus to melee and ranged attacks equal to half your level.
   Shield Chantex: Your chanting cautions allies that they must not make light of threats. Allies gain a deflection bonus to AC or all saves (chosen at the time you begin singing; you must stop and start the song again to switch the bonus) equal to the number of odd circles of this track you possess.

2nd Circle - Disarming Talent: You gain mastery over dissonance, and are able to use your abilities to hinder enemies as well as help allies. You gain one of the following [Songs]. This choice is permanent.
   Unsettleex: Your tune sounds normal enough, but something about it is...off, and that strangeness puts your opponents off balance. Opponents suffer a penalty to attack rolls equal to the number of odd circles of this track you possess for the duration of the [Round], and must make a Will save on their turn to remove it.
   Screechex: You take a less subtle approach and simply make the most horrible sounds you are capable of. These sounds are so terrible they distract your opponents from defending themselves. Opponents suffer a penalty to AC or all saves (chosen at the time you begin singing; you must stop and start the song again to switch the penalty) equal to the number of odd circles of this track you possess for the duration of the [Round], and must make a Will save on their turn to remove it.
   
3rd Circle - Polyphony: You are so skilled with your repertoire that you can seamlessly transition from one to another and back, blending them together into one combined piece of music greater than the sum of its parts. Every turn a [Song] affects allies,  they may remove up to one of the following conditions affecting them: [Bleeding], [Burning], [Dazzled], [Fatigued], [Shaken], or [Sickened]. In addition, you may now sing two [Songs] at once. You need only spend one swift action per turn to concentrate on both, though you must still spend a move action to activate each one.

4th Circle - Joyful Noise: You learn songs of praise and glory that give your allies strength in less direct ways than your chants. You gain one of the following [Songs]. This choice is permanent.
   Paean to Sightex: You sharpen your allies' eyes and help them see (and attack) further. Allies are considered 5 levels higher for the purpose of calculating [Melee], [Close], [Medium], and [Long] ranges while this [Song] is in effect.
   Paean to Precisionex: Allies hearing this piece are better able to find weak points and press their advantage. Ally critical threat ranges expand to 18-20 while this [Song] is in effect. If allies possess critical threat increasing feats such as To Iron Married, their critical threat is expanded by 1 instead. (An ally with By Steel Beholden, for example, would expand their critital threat range from 17-20 to 16-20).

5th Circle - Chorus:  You may now sing three [Songs] at any one time. Additionally, [Songs] affecting allies may now also remove [Slowed] and [Stunned].
   
6th Circle - Pacifysu: The muse is with you always, and grants you some of its peaceful power. Twice per Encounter, as a standard action, you may create a 15ft radius spread of tranquility within [Medium] range.  All opponents in this spread must make Will saves or be [Pacified] until the end of your next turn, rendering them unable to directly harm you or any of your allies. This includes attacks of opportunity.

7th Circle - Ancient Music: Your musical ability transcends mortal understanding, and you are able to perform music that is impossibly sublime. You may now sing four [Songs] at any one time. You gain one of the following [Songs]. This choice is permanent.
   Poem of Lifesu: Your angelic voice mends spirits and brings confidence. Allies gain [Resistance] to one damage type of your choice, including physical, until the beginning of your next turn.
   Poem of Deathsu: Your music is a potent reminder of the inevitability of death and the meaninglessness of existence. Each [Round] Poem of Death is sung, each affected enemy gains [Vulnerability] to one damage type of your choice, including physical, until the beginning of your next turn, and must make a Will save on their turn to remove it.

Silver Tongue
Silver Tongue

Troubadours are great at getting themselves into trouble, so naturally they learn to talk themselves back out of it. A troubadour is known for her ability to use her words to more effect than others could achieve even with a sword, and this is exemplified by the Silver Tongue track, which represents a troubadour's weaponized wit.

1st Circle - Cool Under Pressure: You can talk your way out of things more reliably than most. Choose two of Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate. These two skills become your chosen skills and receive the bonuses from this track. This choice is permanent. You may take 10 on these two skills any time you are not in combat, and receive a +3 bonus to their application in combat.

2nd Circle - Chatterbox: You seem to have something relevant to say at all times. You may use the combat effect of one of your chosen skills as an immediate action once per [Round]. In addition, your chosen skills gain the following [Speech] properties. Only one [Speech] property may be applied to any given use of your chosen skills.
   Tell Me Moreex: You can get an opponent to reveal its capabilities. If your Diplomacy check succeeds, you gain [Lesser Resistance] to any one energy or magic damage type that opponent    can employ for two [Rounds].
   Look, Behind Youex: You are adept at distraction. If your Bluff check succeeds, your target is [Flat-footed] against one attack per person until the beginning of your next turn.
   Over Here, Loserex: Taunting is your modus operandi. If your Intimidate check succeeds, the targeted opponent must make an attack or use a damaging ability against you during its next turn. If it cannot reach you, it must move toward you.

3rd Circle - Sticks and Stones: You know every trick in the book by heart, and can take advantage of an opponent's rattled state. You gain a bonus to your Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Perception defenses equal to the number of circles of this track you possess. Additionally, you gain a deflection bonus to AC equal to the number of circles of this track you possess against any opponent you successfully use one of your chosen skills on until the end of your next turn. Note that this does not stack with the deflection bonus to AC from the Melodies track's Shield Chant--rather, it overwrites it for the duration of its effect, since it's a bigger bonus.

4th Circle - Motormouth: It is really kind of amazing how much you talk. You may use the combat effects of both of your chosen skills as the same part of a move action once per [Round], though you may only apply a [Speech] property to one. In addition, your chosen skills gain the following [Speech] properties. Only one [Speech] property may be applied to any given use of your chosen skills.
   Very Interestingex: You can trick an opponent into revealing its allies' tactics. Three times per [Encounter], if your Diplomacy check succeeds, you gain 20% [Miss chance] from all enemies for two rounds.
   Scary, Ain't Itex: Your tall tales convince your opponent that certain things are to be feared. Three times per [Encounter], if your Bluff check succeeds, your target must make a Will save or become [Vulnerable] to one energy or magic damage type until the end of the [Encounter].
   You are Trashex: There's intimidation, and then there's what you do. Three times per [Encounter], if your Intimidate check succeeds, the penalty your target takes to AC and saves from being intimidated increases to -4.

5th Circle - I Can't Hear You: Nobody knows the power of words as well as you do, so you take ample precautions against them. You gain [Immunity] to [Deafened] and all [Fear] effects.  Additionally, you gain a +3 bonus to any one save (chosen at the time of using your chosen skill) against targets you successfully apply your chosen skills to.

6th Circle - Won't Shut Up, Ever: Your gift of gab is truly legendary. Your chosen skills gain the following [Speech] properties. Only one [Speech] property may be applied to any given use of your chosen skills.
   Thanks For The Helpex: Truly, information is the greatest shield. Once per [Encounter], if your Diplomacy check succeeds, you grant all allies [Greater Resistance] against all damage from your target until the beginning of your next turn.
   It'll Stay Like Thatsu: Somehow, your lies have started coming true. Once per [Encounter], If you have succeeded on two Bluff checks against an opponent, you may apply this [Speech] property to a third. If that Bluff check succeeds, your target must make a Will save or become [Petrified].
   Quiet, I'm Talkingex: If you have something to say, nobody is allowed to interrupt you. Once per [Encounter], if your Intimidate check succeeds, you may automatically cancel a spell or spell-like ability your target attempts to activate as an immediate action. The ability automatically fails, but counts as having been activated for the purpose of any resource cost (such as spell slots) and the opponent's action counts as having been used.

7th Circle - Haven't Said Enough: You are so slick you can talk the gatekeeper of the Netherworld out of admitting you. Once per [Scene], if you are killed or rendered [Unconscious], you are revived with full hit points one [Round] after your death or knock-out. You may choose to delay this revival as long as you wish. You may choose not to return.

WORK IN PROGRESS: I HAVE ENTERED THE WIDE WORLD OF HOMEBREW. HAVE AT ME. Genre tracks still under construction.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 07:18:58 PM by CCM »

Regitnui

  • Elite
  • ***
  • Posts: 209
  • Gender: Male
  • Father of the Four
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Troubadour
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2013, 05:12:56 AM »
So this is basically the 'bard' archetype translated to Legend? Interesting, I'll admit, but let's see the genre tracks first. In feel it's very like the rogue, but I like it so far.
Sebrica - The House of Corners
A Homebrew Campaign Setting

Zejety

  • Shaman
  • Elite
  • ***
  • Posts: 431
  • Gender: Male
  • Sage of Heed
  • Typo Hammer Ballot Box Dungeon Delver Eye of Seeing Art Aficionado
    • View Profile
    • Track Overview
    • Awards
Re: Troubadour
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2013, 06:30:41 AM »
I only skimmed through the Melodies track because I'm at work and I cannot comment on balance in general.
However, one thing that caught my eye is:
Quote
3rd Circle - Soothing Sound: Every turn a [Song] affects allies, 2 [HP Reduction] they have suffered is undone, and they may remove up to one of the following conditions affecting them: [Bleeding], [Burning], [Dazzled], [Fatigued], [Shaken], or [Sickened].
From what I gathered in other homebrew threads, healing HP reduction is a no go, as it's entire point is to be unhealable damage. I would consider changing this.

Mystify

  • Sage
  • In Mithril Reborn
  • ****
  • Posts: 3117
  • Gender: Male
  • Scroll of Scribes Typo Hammer Magic 8-Ball Editor's Highlight Ballot Box Dungeon Delver Art Aficionado
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Troubadour
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2013, 10:09:10 AM »
Zejety is right, [Hp reduction] is supposed to last for the entire encounter, healing it defeats its purpose.

I think a swift action is more expenive than a partial move overall, making it better to just restart the song every round rather than continue it.

untyped AC bonuses should not be easy to get; compare tactical insight, which grants a defelection bonus to AC.

Tracks that offer a lot of potential bonuses but only let you utilize one at a time are tricky. Basically, the entire benefit of the trackat any given time is spending an action for a specific buff. Contrast tactical insight, which grants a buff which lasts for the encounter, then they can add on others. Maybe around 3rd circle add in an ability called harmony which lets you initiate extra songs, up to some limit.

cool under pressure is better than esoterica radica 1. Its more restricted in what you can do with it, yes, but if the rogue takes bluff and diplomacy, he is worse off that you are. Those will also become some really huge bonuses for opposed checks- esp since you are taking 10, it will basically become "never fail these checks" very quickly, even without further investment.

not needing an action to use the skill seems really early- ancestors doesn't do it until 3rd. I am also concerned with how well that will synergize with some upcoming content. You are making these skill checks be extremely effective, removing their cost doesn't seem nessecary.

I'm kinda worried about a blanket immunity to combat social skills. Yeah, intimidate exists, but some characters rely on bluff to get their damage output, and would get seriously screwed by this.
and again, don't add untyped AC bonuses.

I'd change motormouth to letting you use two social skills with the same partial move, and adding a clause that it can only count as a single success for activating other abilities.

the AC bonus from I can't hear you is absurdly high, on top of being a bad idea to have untyped AC  bonuses. You could try letting the track grant a delfection bonus equal to circle when you succeed your social skill check instead.

I feel like quiet, I'm talking should require an immediate action.




My extensive collection of homebrew
As always, Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly

Tenno Seremel

  • Shaman
  • Elite
  • ***
  • Posts: 417
  • Destiny is chain for the weak.
  • Typo Hammer Ballot Box
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Troubadour
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2013, 01:23:01 PM »
Quote
2nd Circle - Disarming Talent: You gain mastery over dissonance, and are able to use your abilities to hinder enemies as well as help allies. You gain one of the following [Songs]. This choice is permanent.
   Unsettleex: Your tune sounds normal enough, but something about it is...off, and that strangeness puts your opponents off balance. Opponents must make a Will save each [Round] this [Song] is in effect or suffer a penalty to attack rolls equal to the number of odd circles of this track you possess for the duration of the [Round].
   Screechex: You take a less subtle approach and simply make the most horrible sounds you are capable of. These sounds are so terrible they distract your opponents from defending themselves. Opponents must make a Will save each [Round] this [Song] is in effect or suffer a penalty to AC or all saves (chosen at the time you begin singing; you must stop and start the song again to switch the penalty) equal to the number of odd circles of this track you possess.
Screech, unlike Unsettle, does not say “for the duration of the [Round].” Does that mean it will stack? That's rather problematic, IMO.

Metool

  • Rogue
  • Elite
  • ***
  • Posts: 296
  • You ever lose hope?
  • Eye of Seeing Ballot Box
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Troubadour
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2013, 05:57:28 PM »
Tenno, you're forgetting about same-source stacking. Namely, that modifiers from the same source don't stack. It's why an opponent hit with Smiting's 7th — War Engine doesn't lose -9 or -10 AC each time they're hit. (Seriously, go check that wording.)

Also, CCM, I've just woken up, and so when I'm feeling more awake I shall examine your class fully. I like the look of it. Do take note of the fact, though, that persistent modifiers don't stack with each other, if they are indeed from the same source.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 06:14:41 PM by Metool »
"Honestly, I don't know if this non-core option is 1.0-ready"

No, it isn't. It may be updated at some point but it isn't 1.0-ready, which is why it isn't in 1.0. Anything that isn't in the 1.0 core rulebook should be treated as not being 1.0 compliant and used with caution if at all.

CCM

  • Mook
  • *
  • Posts: 8
  • Gender: Male
  • IT'S JUST LIKE MY LIFE! ...in a way
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Troubadour
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2013, 06:18:48 PM »
Quote
From what I gathered in other homebrew threads, healing HP reduction is a no go, as it's entire point is to be unhealable damage. I would consider changing this.
I had no idea! But now I know. Changed that!

I think a swift action is more expenive than a partial move overall, making it better to just restart the song every round rather than continue it.
Is it? I learned something new today! Full move action to activate it is.

Quote
untyped AC bonuses should not be easy to get; compare tactical insight, which grants a defelection bonus to AC.
It was originally deflection, I just deleted it because a song deflecting attacks from you seemed kind of silly. I'll stick that back in there, then.

Quote
Tracks that offer a lot of potential bonuses but only let you utilize one at a time are tricky. Basically, the entire benefit of the trackat any given time is spending an action for a specific buff. Contrast tactical insight, which grants a buff which lasts for the encounter, then they can add on others. Maybe around 3rd circle add in an ability called harmony which lets you initiate extra songs, up to some limit.
Are you sure about that? That seems to me like it would be very powerful, especially since Tactical Insight only applies the buff against enemies you have knowledge on while these apply a blanket buff, full stop. Hmm, how does it sound to make the first activated song a move action, and then standard actions to add songs up to the number of odd circles you have?

Quote
cool under pressure is better than esoterica radica 1. Its more restricted in what you can do with it, yes, but if the rogue takes bluff and diplomacy, he is worse off that you are. Those will also become some really huge bonuses for opposed checks- esp since you are taking 10, it will basically become "never fail these checks" very quickly, even without further investment.
You've misread this one! The taking 10 only applies outside of combat, and the bonus only applies in combat; they're mutually exclusive. The first draft had taking 10 in combat along with bonuses, but that seemed kind of absurd, given social defenses aren't exactly huge. Should the +1/circle bonus be nerfed?

Quote
not needing an action to use the skill seems really early- ancestors doesn't do it until 3rd. I am also concerned with how well that will synergize with some upcoming content. You are making these skill checks be extremely effective, removing their cost doesn't seem nessecary.
Well, if that's not an ominous comment, I don't know what is! I suppose I'll downsize some of the bonuses; I know I definitely have to continually remind my players that in-battle skill use exists, so I figured I'd need to make it really easy for people not to just look at the track, shake their heads, and multiclass out of it.

Quote
I'm kinda worried about a blanket immunity to combat social skills. Yeah, intimidate exists, but some characters rely on bluff to get their damage output, and would get seriously screwed by this.
and again, don't add untyped AC bonuses.
??? I don't even understand what you're saying here. The character is very good with social skills, so it makes sense that they would be able to neuter Assassins and their ilk's ability to get easy [Flat-footed] bonuses through bluffing. It's just a personal immunity, and social skills don't really come up a lot in combat aside from sneak attackers and...other people with the Silver Tongue track, so I'm not seeing what the problem is. Please elaborate?

Quote
I'd change motormouth to letting you use two social skills with the same partial move, and adding a clause that it can only count as a single success for activating other abilities.
This is a very good idea! I'll implement that.

Quote
the AC bonus from I can't hear you is absurdly high, on top of being a bad idea to have untyped AC  bonuses. You could try letting the track grant a delfection bonus equal to circle when you succeed your social skill check instead.
This is the troubadour's "defensive" track, so I figured getting the ability to defend against a couple targets per turn would help. I'm hesitant to put two deflection bonuses on the same class, though, since that strongly disincentivizes ever using the +AC song. How does your solution fix the absurdly high AC bonus, anyway? This is a fifth circle ability, so it would still be +5 AC. I will add a typed bonus, but I'm not sure if deflection is wise.

Quote
I feel like quiet, I'm talking should require an immediate action.
It really should, nice catch.

Quote
Screech, unlike Unsettle, does not say “for the duration of the [Round].” Does that mean it will stack? That's rather problematic, IMO.
Like Metool says, I'm protected by same-source stacking here, but I should probably add in a clause just so people don't misunderstand. Thanks for pointing that out!


Thank you so much for the timely feedback, everyone! I'm working on the Genre tracks, they should be done within a couple days. They're in rough draft form now, I'm still trying to differentiate the melee and ranged tracks and make the magic track something other than "black tidings except it's a musicky beam."

Metool

  • Rogue
  • Elite
  • ***
  • Posts: 296
  • You ever lose hope?
  • Eye of Seeing Ballot Box
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Troubadour
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2013, 06:28:43 PM »
Oh, a solution for the Will saves issue could be "Will ends".

Quote
I'm kinda worried about a blanket immunity to combat social skills. Yeah, intimidate exists, but some characters rely on bluff to get their damage output, and would get seriously screwed by this.
and again, don't add untyped AC bonuses.
??? I don't even understand what you're saying here. The character is very good with social skills, so it makes sense that they would be able to neuter Assassins and their ilk's ability to get easy [Flat-footed] bonuses through bluffing. It's just a personal immunity, and social skills don't really come up a lot in combat aside from sneak attackers and...other people with the Silver Tongue track, so I'm not seeing what the problem is. Please elaborate?

The problem is that it's not just Sneak Attackers trying to do that, it's Reign of Arrows users, as well. Those tracks would be relatively common, I imagine, as they're cheap ways of getting sizeable damage on ranged attacks. There's even a feat that lets you use Perception in place of Bluff to make an opponent [Flat-footed] for the purposes of your next attack, Sniper.


I recommend granting a bonus to social defenses instead.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 06:32:41 PM by Metool »
"Honestly, I don't know if this non-core option is 1.0-ready"

No, it isn't. It may be updated at some point but it isn't 1.0-ready, which is why it isn't in 1.0. Anything that isn't in the 1.0 core rulebook should be treated as not being 1.0 compliant and used with caution if at all.

CCM

  • Mook
  • *
  • Posts: 8
  • Gender: Male
  • IT'S JUST LIKE MY LIFE! ...in a way
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Troubadour
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2013, 06:38:17 PM »
Oh, a solution for the Will saves issue could be "Will ends".
Oh my god, the 4E solution! It was staring me in the face the entire time! Either you're a genius or I'm a huge idiot! Thank you!

Quote
Quote
I'm kinda worried about a blanket immunity to combat social skills. Yeah, intimidate exists, but some characters rely on bluff to get their damage output, and would get seriously screwed by this.
and again, don't add untyped AC bonuses.
??? I don't even understand what you're saying here. The character is very good with social skills, so it makes sense that they would be able to neuter Assassins and their ilk's ability to get easy [Flat-footed] bonuses through bluffing. It's just a personal immunity, and social skills don't really come up a lot in combat aside from sneak attackers and...other people with the Silver Tongue track, so I'm not seeing what the problem is. Please elaborate?

The problem is that it's not just Sneak Attackers trying to do that, it's Reign of Arrows users, as well. Those tracks would be relatively common, I imagine, as they're cheap ways of getting sizeable damage on ranged attacks. There's even a feat that lets you use Perception in place of Bluff to make an opponent [Flat-footed] for the purposes of your next attack, Sniper.

I recommend granting a bonus to social defenses instead.
You make a good argument. It should definitely be a huge bonus to those defenses in my opinion, though. Half level?

Metool

  • Rogue
  • Elite
  • ***
  • Posts: 296
  • You ever lose hope?
  • Eye of Seeing Ballot Box
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Troubadour
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2013, 06:41:19 PM »
Probably equal to your circles so it's not insurmountable, just really tough.
"Honestly, I don't know if this non-core option is 1.0-ready"

No, it isn't. It may be updated at some point but it isn't 1.0-ready, which is why it isn't in 1.0. Anything that isn't in the 1.0 core rulebook should be treated as not being 1.0 compliant and used with caution if at all.

Mystify

  • Sage
  • In Mithril Reborn
  • ****
  • Posts: 3117
  • Gender: Male
  • Scroll of Scribes Typo Hammer Magic 8-Ball Editor's Highlight Ballot Box Dungeon Delver Art Aficionado
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Troubadour
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2013, 06:52:33 PM »

Quote
Tracks that offer a lot of potential bonuses but only let you utilize one at a time are tricky. Basically, the entire benefit of the trackat any given time is spending an action for a specific buff. Contrast tactical insight, which grants a buff which lasts for the encounter, then they can add on others. Maybe around 3rd circle add in an ability called harmony which lets you initiate extra songs, up to some limit.
Are you sure about that? That seems to me like it would be very powerful, especially since Tactical Insight only applies the buff against enemies you have knowledge on while these apply a blanket buff, full stop. Hmm, how does it sound to make the first activated song a move action, and then standard actions to add songs up to the number of odd circles you have?
Think about it- if you only have 1 bonus, then that is the only benefit from the track. It would be like a spellcaster who has a single buff on. Lets look at poem of life, for example. resistance to allies, great.
A shaman could cast adamant skin on everyone, outside of combat, and grant them resistance to all damage. It would use up some of  their 6th circle spells.
meanwhile, they can still give everyoen fist of the earth, nature's power, establish world-mind, and cast death ward, all without actually doing anything in combat. They will still have a ton of spellcasting power once combat starts.
I'd say stick with move actions to start songs, and a swift to maintain all of your songs, and a limit equal to your odd circles.

You've misread this one! The taking 10 only applies outside of combat, and the bonus only applies in combat; they're mutually exclusive. The first draft had taking 10 in combat along with bonuses, but that seemed kind of absurd, given social defenses aren't exactly huge. Should the +1/circle bonus be nerfed?
I'd make it a flat +3, like demon

Well, if that's not an ominous comment, I don't know what is! I suppose I'll downsize some of the bonuses; I know I definitely have to continually remind my players that in-battle skill use exists, so I figured I'd need to make it really easy for people not to just look at the track, shake their heads, and multiclass out of it.
social skills are a large part of combat, if your players aren't remembering to use them they are missing out. If you have devoted a track to using them, then you really remember to use them. This is a track that runs on partial move actions, which is pretty appealing all by itself.
??? I don't even understand what you're saying here. The character is very good with social skills, so it makes sense that they would be able to neuter Assassins and their ilk's ability to get easy [Flat-footed] bonuses through bluffing. It's just a personal immunity, and social skills don't really come up a lot in combat aside from sneak attackers and...other people with the Silver Tongue track, so I'm not seeing what the problem is. Please elaborate?
social skills are highly prevalant in combat. If your people aren't using them, its because they are not fully utilizing the system, not because social skills are not used. Unless a character has a compelling other use for their partial moves, social skills are where its at.
a bonus to the DC people have to hit for social skills against you would work, 
This is the troubadour's "defensive" track, so I figured getting the ability to defend against a couple targets per turn would help. I'm hesitant to put two deflection bonuses on the same class, though, since that strongly disincentivizes ever using the +AC song. How does your solution fix the absurdly high AC bonus, anyway? This is a fifth circle ability, so it would still be +5 AC. I will add a typed bonus, but I'm not sure if deflection is wise.
your options for typing are basically deflection or item, and item doesn't seem to make sense here.
a +circle deflection bonus to AC is within the normal expectations of the system. An extra +5 on top of everything else is a ton, because it would be in addition to all other AC bonues, not instead of some of them.
You are right that having both tracks grant deflection AC  is a poor design, but something needs changed.
looking at it closer now that I'm not rushing to finish my comments before running off to work, just making the bonuses be a deflection but keeping their magnitude would probably work for this class. You wouldn't want to skip out on deflection bonuses entirely, but it would still be a boost against the people you are using your skills on.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 07:02:00 PM by Mystify »
My extensive collection of homebrew
As always, Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly

Greybender

  • Elite
  • ***
  • Posts: 456
  • Eye of Seeing Ballot Box
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Troubadour
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2013, 06:58:07 PM »
Utter brute gives a partial precedence to make it  Fury bonus, but it would probably have to be lower.
The game would implode into rocket tag in a twisted mockery of all that is wrong with 3.5, angels would weep and the skies would fall, and it would all be your fault. Yours and yours alone.

Mystify

  • Sage
  • In Mithril Reborn
  • ****
  • Posts: 3117
  • Gender: Male
  • Scroll of Scribes Typo Hammer Magic 8-Ball Editor's Highlight Ballot Box Dungeon Delver Art Aficionado
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Troubadour
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2013, 07:01:04 PM »
Utter brute gives a partial precedence to make it  Fury bonus, but it would probably have to be lower.
Utter brute grants an item bonus which happens to be fury. Making it fury alone would be pointless, as it would only limit it from stacking with utter brute.
My extensive collection of homebrew
As always, Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly

CCM

  • Mook
  • *
  • Posts: 8
  • Gender: Male
  • IT'S JUST LIKE MY LIFE! ...in a way
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Troubadour
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2013, 07:16:47 PM »
Think about it- if you only have 1 bonus, then that is the only benefit from the track. It would be like a spellcaster who has a single buff on. Lets look at poem of life, for example. resistance to allies, great.
A shaman could cast adamant skin on everyone, outside of combat, and grant them resistance to all damage. It would use up some of  their 6th circle spells.
meanwhile, they can still give everyoen fist of the earth, nature's power, establish world-mind, and cast death ward, all without actually doing anything in combat. They will still have a ton of spellcasting power once combat starts.
I'd say stick with move actions to start songs, and a swift to maintain all of your songs, and a limit equal to your odd circles.
You got it. Slightly worried that 5th circle is...a bit sparse, but other than that it's implemented. Buffed Pacify to justify its jump to 6th circle, it's an area effect now.

Quote
I'd make it a flat +3, like demon
I suppose so!

Quote
your options for typing are basically deflection or item, and item doesn't seem to make sense here.
a +circle deflection bonus to AC is within the normal expectations of the system. An extra +5 on top of everything else is a ton, because it would be in addition to all other AC bonues, not instead of some of them.
You are right that having both tracks grant deflection AC  is a poor design, but something needs changed.
looking at it closer now that I'm not rushing to finish my comments before running off to work, just making the bonuses be a deflection but keeping their magnitude would probably work for this class. You wouldn't want to skip out on deflection bonuses entirely, but it would still be a boost against the people you are using your skills on.
Well, it's basically doubling the other bonus, so that's worthwhile.