Author Topic: Reenvisioning vision  (Read 3238 times)

Mystify

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Reenvisioning vision
« on: October 24, 2013, 06:59:53 PM »
Issues:
Stealth is one aspect of Legend that I have found to be rather problematic in practice. Here are the issues that I have noticed, and some very simple rule changes to address them.


Stealth can be uncounterable
   Stealth is heavily weighted in favor of the sneaker. This is reasonable for actively trying to sneak by people, but when the situation reverses and there are people searching everywhere, them having no chance of finding you becomes a problem.
   Solution: Any character can use a move action to make a perception check of DC 10 + opponent’s total stealth modifier. You must have line of sight to where their opponent is for this check to succeed. Tremorsense can still be find stealthy  creatures with a swift action, and works as before.
   Explanation: This makes searching out a character go into the control of the searcher. The stealth character can’t use ER to take 10 and always be unseen by searchers, even if it would allow them to slip by unnoticed. The sneaking character can make attempts to remain hidden by keeping out of line of sight completely.

Cover is not needed after initiating stealth
   As long as you have concealment when you make the initial check, you can walk into a brightly lit room, stand in the middle of a spotlight with 100 guards looking at you, and remain unseen. You can walk down a featureless corridor with guards lining the walls and not be seen. I find that this is not only absurd, but makes stealth less interesting. You should need to find some way to deal with such a situation, not saunter through it.
   Solution: At the end of your turn, your stealth ends for an opponent if you are in their line of sight, are not [Concealed] or [Fully concealed], and the opponent is not distracted.  If you have 10 ranks in stealth, this restriction is removed.
   Explanation: You can still cross areas to dart from cover to cover, but you need to find the cover. invisible creatures are concealed, so they can still walk around brazenly(assuming nobody can see invisible things). The distraction is a GM call, but should be fairly obvious in practice. The guards lining the corridor are not distracted. The group of thugs playing poker are. You can have an ally create a distraction to allow you to slip by, or perhaps you can create one yourself. At 10 ranks you no longer need this, as you are some uber-stealthy ninja or whatever, and can bend shadows around yourself or whatever else, but your average sneaky character needs to stay  behind things.
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Rule change summary:
 Any character can use a move action to make a perception check of DC 10 + opponent’s total stealth modifier. You must have line of sight to where their opponent is for this check to succeed.
At the end of your turn, your stealth ends for an opponent if you are in their line of sight, are not [Concealed] or [Fully concealed], and the opponent is not distracted.  If you have 10 ranks in stealth, this restriction is removed.
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jared71

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Re: Reenvisioning vision
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2013, 09:19:27 PM »
I strongly agree with the above.  The Danger Sense [Skill] feat and tremor sense would be slightly weakened by this change in rules though.

I don't agree with 10 ranks in stealth bypasses restriction unless you had 10 ranks of perception bypass this.   If someone hides behind a building and then follows someone around with see invisible and every other form of detection up they shouldn't just be able to walk in front of them if they have perception trained....

An overall simplification to the stealth rules would be good too.  There are so many modifiers to keep track of especially during combat.  Stealth degrades during combat over time is a good thing, but simplification of this process would be good.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2013, 09:30:37 PM by jared71 »

Mystify

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Re: Reenvisioning vision
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2013, 09:44:27 PM »
the 10 rank de-restriction is basically hide in plain sight. The perception guy can still use his move action to try to see the guy, but the guy is doing some super-elite stealth trick to be hidden. By that level, we are dealing with superhuman. A good medicine check at that level can bring back the dead, sneaky guys can be eerily sneaky.

As far as the stealth modifiers, I think they are all important. You need penalty for attacking. You need a penalty for other combat actions. You need a penalty for range. You need to incorporate movement. In practice, you tend to have an action penalty and a movement modifier each round. Its not hard to keep track of.
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Castodas

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Re: Reenvisioning vision
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2013, 08:57:09 PM »
How does hiding work as is?
I'm honestly very skeptic about it because I feel like there are so many penalties and it requires several rounds of doing nothing to get a decent bonus, especially after being destroyed by the penalty. So do you (or anyone) mind explaining hiding a little more in depth?

Mystify

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Re: Reenvisioning vision
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2013, 10:37:33 PM »
How does hiding work as is?
I'm honestly very skeptic about it because I feel like there are so many penalties and it requires several rounds of doing nothing to get a decent bonus, especially after being destroyed by the penalty. So do you (or anyone) mind explaining hiding a little more in depth?
Basically, you don't hide in combat, because that ends up being massively overpowered. You can hide before combat, but once you start shooting things, you end up being found pretty quickly.
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jared71

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Re: Reenvisioning vision
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2013, 02:56:51 PM »
Hiding is super easy out of combat.  Especially for a take 10 stealth rogue with dex.    It's not an opposed check so you will always win, unless someone has a ridiculously high awareness.   Hiding is Stealth (dex + lvl + bonus) +D20  vs  Awareness (10 + lvl + wis +bonus)  so it's super easy to beat.

Once combat starts the -5's add up so fast you can't hide more than a round or two.


Mystify

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Re: Reenvisioning vision
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2013, 03:11:40 PM »
Hiding is super easy out of combat.  Especially for a take 10 stealth rogue with dex.    It's not an opposed check so you will always win, unless someone has a ridiculously high awareness.   Hiding is Stealth (dex + lvl + bonus) +D20  vs  Awareness (10 + lvl + wis +bonus)  so it's super easy to beat.

Once combat starts the -5's add up so fast you can't hide more than a round or two.
I have, on several occasions, encountered the situation where we knew someone was hiding, and there was no way to find them. They make their stealth roll, beat our awareness, and thats it, they are hidden forever. We didn't know if they were in the middle of a featureless hallway, or what. This is meant to combat that situation. First, it would let you know they aren't standing in the featureless corridor exploiting vision rules. They must actually be hiding someplace. As it so happens, in that situation the person had made a hidey-hole in the ceiling, which was great, but because the stealth rule are so screwey, we just assumed he was standing in the open with a good stealth check. With these rules, you can try to figure out where they might be taking cover, and actively try to flush them out.
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Castodas

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Re: Reenvisioning vision
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2013, 05:42:10 PM »
How did you know someone was hiding?

Mystify

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Re: Reenvisioning vision
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2013, 06:09:19 PM »
How did you know someone was hiding?
that specific case was a tournament, with the goal of tracking down the target.
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Castodas

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Re: Reenvisioning vision
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2013, 06:58:34 PM »
What you should have done was hide back. Then just wait for the other guy to get bored, or hungry.  He has to eat eventually!  Unless he can get around that...

Yeah, that or burn everything to the ground!  Yeah...   8)

Or develope your houserule for hiding. That's probably the best method.