Author Topic: Combative parkour  (Read 2790 times)

Mystify

  • Sage
  • In Mithril Reborn
  • ****
  • Posts: 3117
  • Gender: Male
  • Scroll of Scribes Typo Hammer Magic 8-Ball Editor's Highlight Ballot Box Dungeon Delver Art Aficionado
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Combative parkour
« on: December 19, 2013, 12:02:55 AM »
This is a variation on the parkour skill game to allow for shooting to be incorporated, and an alternative victory goal depending on the situation.

The rules are the same as parkour, with the following options:

Aggressions

Potshot(1 token): When actions are revealed during the next [Action round], one member of your party may make an attack against the opposing party. If this attack hits, the opposing party loses 1 Chase Point. If it is the Final Stretch [Action round], you may make this attack now instead.

Clear shot(2 tokens): When actions are revealed during the next [Action round], one member of your party may take a standard action against the opposing party. If this does damage to the opposing party, you gain 1 Chase Point and they lose 1 Chase Point.  If it is the Final Stretch [Action round], you may make this standard action now instead.

Full Barrage!(3 tokens) When actions are revealed during the next [Action round], Your party may make 4 attackd against the opposing party. The opposing team loses 1 Chase Point for each attack that hits. These attacks occur at full base attack bonus, but must be as evenly distributed amongst the attackers as possible. If it is the Final Stretch [Action round], you may make this attack now instead.

Contingencies:


Take Cover(1 token):
If the party would be attacked this [Action round], one attack fails.

Setups

Create opening(1 token): During any [Action round] after this one, when the party chooses actions, the party may choose to trigger this action. When this action is triggered, the party may make 1 extra attack from an Agression action.


If the pursuing party wins the skill challenge, then a combat encounter starts immediately.
If the pursued party wins the skill challenge, then they escape.

Alternative win conditions:
If the goal is to reach a certain place first, then instead of 7 Leads or 7 Hazards, the winner is whomever reaches 10 chase points first. If the pursuing party wins, they can cut off the pursuers before they get there. If the pursued party wins, then they can reach the goal first.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 10:11:07 AM by Mystify »
My extensive collection of homebrew
As always, Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly

Epsilon Rose

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 77
  • The King of Unrest
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Combative parkour
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2013, 02:17:18 AM »
This is a variation on the parkour skill game to allow for shooting to be incorporated, and an alternative victory goal depending on the situation.

The rules are the same as parkour, with the following options:

Aggressions

Potshot(1 token): When actions are revealed during the next [Action round], one member of your party may make an attack against the opposing party. If this attack hits, you gain 1 Chase Point. If it is the Final Stretch [Action round], you may make this attack now instead.


Clear shot(2 tokens): When actions are revealed during the next [Action round], one member of your party may take a standard action against the opposing party. If this does damage to the opposing party, you gain 1 Chase Point and they lose 1 Chase Point.  If it is the Final Stretch [Action round], you may make this standard action now instead.

Full Barrage! When actions are revealed during the next [Action round], every member of your party may make an attack against the opposing party. You gain 1 Chase Point for each attack that hits, up to a maximum of 4. If it is the Final Stretch [Action round], you may make this attack now instead.

Contingencies:


Take Cover(1 token):
If the party would be attacked this [Action round], one attack fails.

Setups

Create opening(1 token): During any [Action round] after this one, when the party chooses actions, the party may choose to trigger this action. When this action is triggered, the party may make 1 extra attack from an Agression action.


If the pursuing party wins the skill challenge, then a combat encounter starts immediately.
If the pursued party wins the skill challenge, then they escape.

Alternative win conditions:
If the goal is to reach a certain place first, then instead of 7 Leads or 7 Hazards, the winner is whomever reaches 10 chase points first. If the pursuing party wins, they can cut off the pursuers before they get there. If the pursued party wins, then they can reach the goal first.

Clear shot and full attack seem incredibly powerful, more so than any other option, especially when you factor in the new victory conditions. Full attack also seems to be missing a cost.

For all of these, how does AC work? Since they're attack the party, do they use the highest AC, the lowest or do they have to choose a character? What about HP?

For clear shot, how does that work with standard actions that have effects beyond straight damage? What happens if it does knockdown, blind or burn?

On a similar note, how do utility powers, especially ones that can be used as swift or immediate actions, factor into this? For example, if I have 3rd circle in the ninja track, I can lay down an obscuring mist and add [teleport] to my movement. Does this effect their attack roll or what actions they can choose? Does having a more advantageous mode of movement get me a bonus of any sort?

Edit: Also, unlike the regular options, none of your options seem to have counters or interactions with any of the other abilities.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 02:20:27 AM by Epsilon Rose »

Mystify

  • Sage
  • In Mithril Reborn
  • ****
  • Posts: 3117
  • Gender: Male
  • Scroll of Scribes Typo Hammer Magic 8-Ball Editor's Highlight Ballot Box Dungeon Delver Art Aficionado
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Combative parkour
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2013, 10:09:00 AM »
Yeah, I think clear shot and full barrage need tweaked. They are supposed to give the same token:chase point advantage as the others, and trade off the conditionality of the attack for the advantage of doing damage. For pot-shot I think that works, but when you escalate to clear shot it becomes drastically more likely that it will simply work, and full barrage has issues with scaling with party members.

You would be attacking a specific creature from the opposing party.

effects other than damage will only be relevant if they impede skill checks. Other things not working is a weakness of skill games in general.

Better move speeds and movement modes don't factor into parkour in the first place. I'm not trying to fix skill games, just add in some shooting.

They do have interactions with other abilities. Stop will block the chase point loss, for instance. Thinking about it, the aggressions should probably be removing chase points from the opponents. I'll change that, which will make stop and drop more useful against them.
My extensive collection of homebrew
As always, Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly

Epsilon Rose

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 77
  • The King of Unrest
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Combative parkour
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2013, 01:43:27 PM »
effects other than damage will only be relevant if they impede skill checks. Other things not working is a weakness of skill games in general.

Better move speeds and movement modes don't factor into parkour in the first place. I'm not trying to fix skill games, just add in some shooting.

So. That's, sort-of, acceptable in normal skill games, though it does stretch credibility, but once you start adding attacks and abilities to the mix it becomes rather immersion breaking and unacceptable. On the one hand, you get situations where attacks that physically knock your opponent down or stop them from moving (but not making checks) don't actually help you in catch up in a chase any more than simply plinking them for 1 damage. On the other hand, things that are explicitly designed for escaping, like teleports and glue bombs, do literally nothing.

If none of those abilities are on the table, then it's a somewhat acceptable abstraction "You're all in too much of a rush to get off a proper ability and make it stick without completely compromising your position.", but once you can get off more than the occasional pot-shot, you have to start asking why someone hasn't just teleported away or cast grease or something.

Quote
They do have interactions with other abilities. Stop will block the chase point loss, for instance. Thinking about it, the aggressions should probably be removing chase points from the opponents. I'll change that, which will make stop and drop more useful against them.
The chase points do, though the interaction doesn't scale well with the later abilities, but the damage doesn't. In a normal fight you'd have abilities that mitigate, prevent or heal damage. Since these can't be brought to bare in a chase, these rules heavily favor pure damage offensive characters. They also create a perverse incentive to run from weaker fights and stand against stronger ones. For example, if I'm getting chased by Kankrelats that can only hit on a 20 and only do one damage, I don't really care how many shots they take at me, even if I could just stop and curbstomp them, I might as well keep running. Conversely, if I'm being chased by a megatank that hits on 5 and can two shot me, I have no choice but to stop, even though I'd rather run, because that's the only way I can use abilities that give me a chance of surviving, while a chase let's it do it's thing. If you want us to run from strong fights, you need to drastically re-think these rules.

Mystify

  • Sage
  • In Mithril Reborn
  • ****
  • Posts: 3117
  • Gender: Male
  • Scroll of Scribes Typo Hammer Magic 8-Ball Editor's Highlight Ballot Box Dungeon Delver Art Aficionado
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Combative parkour
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2013, 02:23:30 PM »
You also have oddities like "My move speed is 3x faster than theirs" in the normal course of things and it does nothing for you.

These weren't for running *from* fights, it was for running *to* towers.

I don't have time to elaborate on this right now, I'll post more detail later
My extensive collection of homebrew
As always, Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly

Mystify

  • Sage
  • In Mithril Reborn
  • ****
  • Posts: 3117
  • Gender: Male
  • Scroll of Scribes Typo Hammer Magic 8-Ball Editor's Highlight Ballot Box Dungeon Delver Art Aficionado
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Combative parkour
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2013, 07:32:48 PM »
Most of the abilities that help you survive will still work. AC, DR, fast healing, etc. Its mainly active healing, and a couple of activated damage mitigation things, which get cut out. Considering that the opponents have to give up tokens to attempt to attack, it would correspondingly mean you should spend tokens to apply healing. Except, healing isn't going to slow down your opponent.  You have no potential chase point advantage from stopping to heal, so doing so will put you at a distinct disadvantage in the parkour. In effect, healing in the middle of a chase scene doesn't make sense.


Trying to include the full suit of Legend abilities into a chase scene will just lead to chaos. It becomes way to easy for people to just shut down another person or to use some ability that will instantly win if you try to use them in the same way as normal combat. Movement speed alone varies so wildly that a meaningful chase doesn't make sense. This is why the skill game exists in the first place - the normal application of the rules doesn't handle the situation well, but the nature of the situation is that you need some rules to resolve it. 
My extensive collection of homebrew
As always, Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly

Epsilon Rose

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 77
  • The King of Unrest
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Combative parkour
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2013, 10:00:23 PM »
You also have oddities like "My move speed is 3x faster than theirs" in the normal course of things and it does nothing for you.

These weren't for running *from* fights, it was for running *to* towers.

I don't have time to elaborate on this right now, I'll post more detail later

That's why I said that the normal rules are only sort-of acceptable. The thing is, the fact of the matter is they break immersion in fewer ways and the ways they do tend to be passive. Your extension creates new problems that are active. That is much worse.

The fact that you intend for this to work while running to towers, rather than from fights, doesn't change anything. We would still be better off stopping and fighting or even splitting the group, so some of us continue on their way while the rest distract the threat.

Most of the abilities that help you survive will still work. AC, DR, fast healing, etc. Its mainly active healing, and a couple of activated damage mitigation things, which get cut out. Considering that the opponents have to give up tokens to attempt to attack, it would correspondingly mean you should spend tokens to apply healing. Except, healing isn't going to slow down your opponent.  You have no potential chase point advantage from stopping to heal, so doing so will put you at a distinct disadvantage in the parkour. In effect, healing in the middle of a chase scene doesn't make sense.
There are plenty of active abilities that help you survive a fight that don't rely on healing in the slightest. These range for applying status effects to simply throwing up walls. I would rather rely on abilities that prevent an attack from happening in the first place, then ones that try to mitigate it after the fact. Even if I was going to rely on mitigation, there are abilities that work as something other than a move or even standard action. I could chug a potion as a move action and then run as a standard (which should increase my lead over someone who attacked as a move) or I could use a non-action to call on a mechanist assemblage.


Quote
Trying to include the full suit of Legend abilities into a chase scene will just lead to chaos. It becomes way to easy for people to just shut down another person or to use some ability that will instantly win if you try to use them in the same way as normal combat. Movement speed alone varies so wildly that a meaningful chase doesn't make sense. This is why the skill game exists in the first place - the normal application of the rules doesn't handle the situation well, but the nature of the situation is that you need some rules to resolve it. 
That doesn't change the fact that your new additions only serve to highlight discrepancies and heavily favor a single type of character. As a player, I would not want to play with these rules and would likely pick strategies designed, explicitly, to circumvent them and the running battles they're designed to represent.
You're better off with the vanilla rules.

Mystify

  • Sage
  • In Mithril Reborn
  • ****
  • Posts: 3117
  • Gender: Male
  • Scroll of Scribes Typo Hammer Magic 8-Ball Editor's Highlight Ballot Box Dungeon Delver Art Aficionado
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Combative parkour
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2013, 10:41:48 PM »
Can you suggest a better approach to doing this?

If you stop and fight, you make no progress towards the towers until you are done battling, and you would give Xana time to send reinforcements to the tower itself. If you run, you may be able to get to the tower first, and you have a chance to take out opponenets as you go. An enemy that tries to attack you and fails is going to start to fall behind, so they aren't going to be unleashing a constant barrage of attacks. If you split the group, they still end up being chased, and the advantage of being in a chase scene is lessened,

The mere fact you are running is already suppressing their offense by a large margin, especially if it is a group.

your potion analagy is flawed.

Team B: move with move, attack with standard. 1 instance of movement, and can potentially slow you by attacking you
Team A: heal with move, run with standard: 1 instance of movement, no ability to gain ground or slow pursuers.

You could use the 2 point option to apply heals, but you will be losing chase points for slowing down to do healing.
A mechanist assemblage would move with the character, and provide its base level of protection. The extra machines that make it worthwhile are stationary, and hence are not useful in a mobile fight.

What single type of character do they benefit? Attackers? You can not bother with the attack options to simply run the race as fast as possible. IF you have a non-attack based offense, the 2 point option lets you bring it to bear, and those will often do damage automatically. Most of the other abilities can already fall under the existing options. Creating a wall? Thats a barricade. Summon a field of fire? Lethal terrain. Nauseating an enemy to prevent their attack? take cover.

The vanilla rules do not allow for this at all. There are no vanilla rules for a running battle. the normal parkour rules are completely non-viable for this, as I would either have to make it pointless(enemies are waiting for you anyways, winning is meaningless), weight it against you so you simply won't win, or avoid doing anything like this at all, and ignore a major component of the requested setting.
My extensive collection of homebrew
As always, Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly

Castodas

  • Ace
  • ****
  • Posts: 653
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Combative parkour
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2013, 11:37:55 PM »
That's why I said that the normal rules are only sort-of acceptable. The thing is, the fact of the matter is they break immersion in fewer ways and the ways they do tend to be passive. Your extension creates new problems that are active. That is much worse.

The fact that you intend for this to work while running to towers, rather than from fights, doesn't change anything. We would still be better off stopping and fighting or even splitting the group, so some of us continue on their way while the rest distract the threat.

I kind of see it as an case by case basis. Maybe we are being over-run and it would otherwise be stupid to stick around and fight especially if we are trying to keep an Aelita figure alive (I haven't been keep track of all the discussion so that may be a non-thing). I think it could also be useful during a real world situation- or I guess you call it meatworld(?).
-My Apologies too since I just made a reference to something outside this discussion.


There are plenty of active abilities that help you survive a fight that don't rely on healing in the slightest. These range for applying status effects to simply throwing up walls. I would rather rely on abilities that prevent an attack from happening in the first place, then ones that try to mitigate it after the fact. Even if I was going to rely on mitigation, there are abilities that work as something other than a move or even standard action. I could chug a potion as a move action and then run as a standard (which should increase my lead over someone who attacked as a move) or I could use a non-action to call on a mechanist assemblage.

Remember that standard actions cost 2 tokens though. I still need to read up on the actual parkour rules, but I'm already certain that wise token spending is the best route; and if we are seriously over-run with enemies then a little bit of healing might not pay out.
Also, time may be a big factor. We might be pressed to get something done really fast and before someone else dies (as happens in the show a lot- sry, another external reference).

That doesn't change the fact that your new additions only serve to highlight discrepancies and heavily favor a single type of character. As a player, I would not want to play with these rules and would likely pick strategies designed, explicitly, to circumvent them and the running battles they're designed to represent.
You're better off with the vanilla rules.

Yeah, that sort of thing is fine if you are alone, but understand that we should be behaving as a team and if we just go off willy nilly with our own abilities then someone else may pay for those actions. This method keeps us all together more cohesively (however, I still need to read up on the base parkour rules to understand how fast we do go- I think distance in this situation might be irrelevant but idk.)

Also, I haven't had a chance to play with any of these kind of rules so I'm looking forward to getting some practice out of it.