Author Topic: Mechanic: Sunder  (Read 6355 times)

Kitsune_Kinomi

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Mechanic: Sunder
« on: October 13, 2012, 03:43:34 PM »
Hello again ladies and gents, I thought this go round I try my had at an adaptation of a mechanic I found, interesting. Namely the mechanic of sunder. Love it or hate it, it's definitely some thing that was a little bit unique and I can definitely understand why it was removed from Legend. However one of my players and I were talking one day about how much sense sunder would make in Legend since typically most players have some sort of guild affiliation (I'm not making this up that's the explanation I've seen for magic items on the whole) you could just get your item over again at the end of the [Quest]. That being said I know a lot of you might not like Sunder however here are two goes at how it might work in legend one a little more like the original 3.5 and one a little more legend-esque. Also note that I use a lot of the weapon scion home brew to represent mythical weapons (things in the vain of Aegis, Zeus's shield.)
All right my editor was looking over these and suggested that I make a third iteration, namely one that combines some elements from both. I'm went ahead and posted it here so you can check it out too.
This would probably also be a good time to mention this, but I'm not suggested one is better then the other I'm merely saying that these are three idea's that I had for implementing the Sunder Mechanics.

All right version four was a colabertive work between me and Greybender. I actully think that one fits legend the most personally.

All of these version are combat maneuvers so things that affect all combat maneuvers, effect sunder as well.
Item Health Scheme
Sunder v1
As a standard action, make a single melee attack. The attack does normal damage. In addition, on a successful roll your opponent must make a reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 your level + your Strength Modifier - tier of the item) and you can make an additional attack to the weapon its self dealing a single attacks worth of damage. See chart below for weapon health and item tier value. Note that this health is unique to the item and is only recovered at the end of the [Scene]. When an item is destroyed it may be 'recovered' at the end of the [Quest].
 

/----------------------\
| 1 | Mundane    |   8 |
|---+------------+-----|
| 2 | Lesser     |  16 |
|---+------------+-----|
| 3 | Greater    |  32 |
|---+------------+-----|
| 4 | Artifact   |  64 |
|---+------------+-----|
| 5 | Relic      | 128 |
|---+------------+-----|
| 6 | Non-Unique | 256 |
|---+------------+-----|
| 7 | Unique     | 512 |
\----------------------/

Gygaxian Chart Scheme
Sunder v2
As a standard action, make a single melee attack against an opponent wielding a weapon. The attack does normal damage. In addition, on a successful roll, your opponent must make a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 your level + your Strength Modifier). If this attempt is successful the weapon the opponent is wielding gains a [Sunder Token]. When a weapon has gained a number of [Sunder Tokens] equal to the amount required to break it (see chart below) then a final sunder attempt will break the weapon, and it may only be recovered at the end of the [Quest]. A weapon of lower tier may not make a sunder attempt on a weapon of higher tier. All tokens will be removed from the weapon at the end of the [Scene].
The values on the chart represent the number of [Sunder Tokens] required to destroy the weapon with that attacking weapon on the descending side.

With Weapon Scions

/-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
|            |  Mundane   |  Greater   |   Lesser   |   Relic    |  Artifact  | Non-Unique |   Unique   |
|------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------|
| Mundane    |     7      |     x      |     x      |     x      |     x      |     x      |     x      |
|------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------|
| Greater    |     6      |     7      |     x      |     x      |     x      |     x      |     x      |
|------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------|
| Lesser     |     5      |     6      |     7      |     x      |     x      |     x      |     x      |
|------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------|
| Relic      |     4      |     5      |     6      |     7      |     x      |     x      |     x      |
|------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------|
| Artifact   |     3      |     4      |     5      |     6      |     7      |     x      |     x      |
|------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------|
| Non-Unique |     2      |     3      |     4      |     5      |     6      |     7      |     x      |
|------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------|
| Unique     |     1      |     2      |     3      |     4      |     5      |     6      |     7      |
\-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------/


With out weapon Scions

/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------\
|            |  Mundane   |  Greater   |   Lesser   |   Relic    |  Artifact  |
|------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------|
| Mundane    |     5      |     x      |     x      |     x      |     x      |
|------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------|
| Greater    |     4      |     5      |     x      |     x      |     x      |
|------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------|
| Lesser     |     3      |     4      |     5      |     x      |     x      |
|------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------|
| Relic      |     2      |     3      |     4      |     5      |     x      |
|------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------|
| Artifact   |     1      |     2      |     3      |     4      |     5      |
\-----------------------------------------------------------------------------/

Note: This chart is based on a SETTING WITHOUT WEAPON SCIONS.
Skill Game Like Scheme
Sunder v3
As a standard action, make a single melee attack. The attack does normal damage. In addition, on a suffessful roll your opponet must make a reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 your level + your Strength Modifier). If the attempt is seccessful then you applie the number of [Sunder Tokens] from the chart below to the weapon attacked. If a weapon has a number of [Sunder Tokens] equal to the tokens take to break it then the next seccessful sunder attempt with break the weapon.

/-----------------------------------------------\
| Tier       | Tokens to Break | Tokens Applied |
|------------+-----------------+----------------|
| Mundane    |         5       |        1       |
|------------+-----------------+----------------|
| Greater    |        10       |        2       |
|------------+-----------------+----------------|
| Lesser     |        15       |        3       |
|------------+-----------------+----------------|
| Relic      |        20       |        4       |
|------------+-----------------+----------------|
| Artifact   |        25       |        5       |
|------------+-----------------+----------------|
| Non-Unique |        30       |        6       |
|------------+-----------------+----------------|
| Unique     |        35       |        7       |
\-----------------------------------------------/

Item Bonus Reduction Scheme
Sunder v4
As a standard action, make a single melee attack. The attack does normal damage. In addition, on a successful roll your opponent must make a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 your level + your Strength Modifier + (Attacker's Attacking Weapon's Tier - Target's Targeted Item's Tier)). If the Sunder attempt is successful the item bonus of the target's weapon, shield, or armor is reduced by 1 (minimum 0). If an item without an item bonus from item tier (either a mundane item or one that has been sufficiently sundered) is successfully Sundered:
   Weapons lose a single property of the target's choice.
   Armor loses 1 from its mundane item bonus.
   Shields may not be Sundered further once their item bonus from item tier is gone.
All effects from Sundering expire at the end of the [Encounter].
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 12:32:34 PM by Kitsune_Kinomi »
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Kitsune_Kinomi

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Re: Mechanic: Sunder
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2012, 03:43:51 PM »
Version Log
Version 1.2
Version 1.2
   - Posted the fourth version of the mechanics.
   - Updated intro to site Greybender for 4th version.
   - Changed version names to matching scheme.
Version 1.1
Version 1.1.2
   - Clarified that Sunder is a combat maneuver.
   - Fixed spelling errors on v1.

Version 1.1.1
   - Made the font of v3's ASCI chart courier.
   - Fixed tag style issue.
   - Made the version denotation consistent.
   - Removed spaces between the spoilers

Version 1.1
   - Added a third version of sunder mechanics.
   - Added paragraph to intro for third version.
   - Added explanation for multiple version to introduction.
Version 1.0
Version 1.0.2
   - Made the ASCI tables look a little better.
   - Made table elements of ASCI table consistent width.

Version 1.0.1
   - Minor spelling correction in introduction.
   - Added duration to [Sunder Tokens] of Legend style sunder.

Version 1.0.0
   - Posted the original version of the mechanics.
   - Posted introduction.

« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 02:48:40 PM by Kitsune_Kinomi »
"The mark of a immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. "
~ Wilhelm Stekel

"I thought I'd pretend I was one of those blind deaf-mutes."
~ Catcher in the Rye, J. D. Salinger

"The abuse of greatness is when it disjoins remorse from power."
~ Julius Cesar, William Shakespeare

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Kitsune_Kinomi

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Re: Mechanic: Sunder
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2012, 06:14:02 PM »
I added a third implementation idea.
"The mark of a immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. "
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"The abuse of greatness is when it disjoins remorse from power."
~ Julius Cesar, William Shakespeare

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Yoder

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Re: Mechanic: Sunder
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2012, 06:37:23 PM »
Ah, Sundering was always a fun Combat Maneuver in 3.5. It's good to see some implementation ideas. I especially like the 2nd and 3rd ones.
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Re: Mechanic: Sunder
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2012, 08:18:57 PM »
seems overly complicated. If its a weapon, why not simply disarm it? Esp. if its going to take several successful attempts to break it? What is this supposed to add to the game? If I am a DM, why should I include Sunder?
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Re: Mechanic: Sunder
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2012, 08:49:43 PM »
@Mystify:
Sunder renders items unavailable for a while, whereas disarm merely forces the player to pick it up. Also, [extradimensional] makes disarm useless, but that enchantment wouldn't do anything against Sunder. This mechanic encourages players not to do dump all of their resources into 1 item (a bad idea anyway), so they'll have backup weapons that they're competent with (and have effects they'll like). Taking out an opponent's highest tier weapon when their other weapons are of lower tiers or don't suit them as well can have a noticeable impact upon combat.

Kitsune's numbers were just examples, anyway, so saying it takes several successes is irrelevant.

~

@Kitsune:
You may want to mention that shields and armor can be sundered as well, unless that's not your intention.
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My friend just shared this: "Remember that time Gandalf convinced the whole party to flee so that he could take out the Balrog and not have to share any of the XP? Shows up the next session with fancy new robes and everything. What a jerk."

Kitsune_Kinomi

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Re: Mechanic: Sunder
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2012, 09:12:32 PM »
Sorry I'm just going to have to peice meal this.

seems overly complicated.
Do you have any specific examples because that's not adding any thing to this discussion.

If its a weapon, why not simply disarm it?
Your right you could but the point is to have multiple options. So yes you could disarm them and then either you have to pick up their weapon or they could pick it up OR  you could break their weapon suficiantly disarming them for the rest of the encounter.

Esp. if its going to take several successful attempts to break it?
So your suggesting that I instead make one check then the thing is broken for good?

What is this supposed to add to the game?
A sunder mechanic... That seems pretty straight forward...

If I am a DM, why should I include Sunder?
So now your asking me to defend why my content needs to be in your game? That seems a little bit off base. I've never stated that you had to include this in every campain so having to give reasoning for why you should include it seems a little forgone. I'm not here to try and tell you to use my content just offering it as suggestions.

I'm fully aware a lot of people don't like the table of 3.5 and yes that's what some of those were, giant tables of numbers. However I happened to like the tables from 3.5 so I don't mind using them in my home brew, if it's that big a deal that you have to use the mechanic, I'm only suggesting it for those who wanted to see a way to use sunder in Legend. I'm not even saying these are the only three ways to do it, nor are they the best ways.


That being said I would love further comments on the mechanics of any version of Sunder, and suggestions to better improve it, you know instead of attacking my IP.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 09:30:10 PM by Kitsune_Kinomi »
"The mark of a immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. "
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Mystify

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Re: Mechanic: Sunder
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2012, 10:50:52 PM »

By the time you manage to sunder a weapon under these rules, the combat would be over

 
@Mystify:
Sunder renders items unavailable for a while, whereas disarm merely forces the player to pick it up.
disarming someone doesn't just force them to pick it up if you grab it first. Which is a lot easier than sundering, at least under any of the proposed mechanics
 
Also, [extradimensional] makes disarm useless, but that enchantment wouldn't do anything against Sunder.
so you want to undermine the advantage of having an extradimensional weapon?
 
This mechanic encourages players not to do dump all of their resources into 1 item (a bad idea anyway),

Legend doesn't work like that! if you have a relic, its a relic. You can't get several weaker things instead.  picking a higher tier item to be a weapon is a clear choice, with significant opportunity costs. It doesn't need a mechanic saying "No, getting a high tier weapon is a bad idea because it will get smashed". Picking up lesser magic weapons as backup isn't such a great idea since they will be doing nothing most of the time, and you could get an item that gives you its expected value instead. disarming already makes it a bit risky, and you can spend an entire enchantment point to mitigate that. This would just undermine that.
 
so they'll have backup weapons that they're competent with (and have effects they'll like). Taking out an opponent's highest tier weapon when their other weapons are of lower tiers or don't suit them as well can have a noticeable impact upon combat.
that is what disarm is for, and disarm is much easier to do, with much saner long term consequences.

 
Kitsune's numbers were just examples, anyway, so saying it takes several successes is irrelevant.
and if it doesn't, then artifacts become cardboard that you can casually smash.

Currently, there isn't anything that will hinder a players outside of an encounter. you can be healed up right afterwards. Adding in a combat manuever that is less effective in the combat, but screws people over longer-term, doesn't fit with the basic flow of the game. the rest of the [scene] or [quest] shouldn't be harder because you ran into sunder-happy minions the first battle.

@kitsune
what I am trying to get at is "What do you think this will add to a campaign". I wasn't trying to ask about my campaign specifically, but as a general parameter. What would anybody want to include this in a campaign- what value do you expect it to add?
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Kitsune_Kinomi

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Re: Mechanic: Sunder
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2012, 11:15:49 PM »
By the time you manage to sunder a weapon under these rules, the combat would be over
It's not suppose to be easy >>

@Mystify:
Sunder renders items unavailable for a while, whereas disarm merely forces the player to pick it up.
disarming someone doesn't just force them to pick it up if you grab it first. Which is a lot easier than sundering, at least under any of the proposed mechanics
Again your not adding any thing to the convorsation your just spoting off that you don't want to use it which doesn't help any one.

Also, [extradimensional] makes disarm useless, but that enchantment wouldn't do anything against Sunder.
so you want to undermine the advantage of having an extradimensional weapon?
... *deep breath* yes a lot of mechaince make other things useless like you know all those [Resistances] that you stack up by L20 you can make entier tracks meaningless so making some thing that happens to count another thing is a vaild option.

This mechanic encourages players not to do dump all of their resources into 1 item (a bad idea anyway),

Legend doesn't work like that! if you have a relic, its a relic. You can't get several weaker things instead.  picking a higher tier item to be a weapon is a clear choice, with significant opportunity costs. It doesn't need a mechanic saying "No, getting a high tier weapon is a bad idea because it will get smashed". Picking up lesser magic weapons as backup isn't such a great idea since they will be doing nothing most of the time, and you could get an item that gives you its expected value instead. disarming already makes it a bit risky, and you can spend an entire enchantment point to mitigate that. This would just undermine that.
Well it looks like you were reading inbetween the lines cause you jumped on some thing that wasn't said. I also still fail to see where you getting the undermining of Legend from this would you PLEASE actuly give some examiples in my mechanics idea as to why it does that please point to what is breaking it instead of just saying "This would just undermine that" it's seriously not helping any one.

so they'll have backup weapons that they're competent with (and have effects they'll like). Taking out an opponent's highest tier weapon when their other weapons are of lower tiers or don't suit them as well can have a noticeable impact upon combat.
that is what disarm is for, and disarm is much easier to do, with much saner long term consequences.
much saner long term consiquances...
"Well party I'm sorry but the fighers relic sword of much smiting has been stolen from by a rouge and will never be seen again."

vs

"Well the fighters sword got stolen, but he can get it again at the end of the [Quest]"

You know I think a time limit till receiving it again seems a lot more ration then never being able to get it back.

Kitsune's numbers were just examples, anyway, so saying it takes several successes is irrelevant.
and if it doesn't, then artifacts become cardboard that you can casually smash.
I have no idea what you were even trying to say here...

Currently, there isn't anything that will hinder a players outside of an encounter. you can be healed up right afterwards. Adding in a combat manuever that is less effective in the combat, but screws people over longer-term, doesn't fit with the basic flow of the game. the rest of the [scene] or [quest] shouldn't be harder because you ran into sunder-happy minions the first battle.
Once again this is adding an option in the tool belt, I'm trying to understand why it is that you are trying to speak for the whole of the Legend cominity because that's what you're starting to come across as doing.

@kitsune
what I am trying to get at is "What do you think this will add to a campaign". I wasn't trying to ask about my campaign specifically, but as a general parameter. What would anybody want to include this in a campaign- what value do you expect it to add?
This is what I'm talking about, you are trying to talk for the whole of Legend cominity as though the idea I have put forth is a blight on legend home brew and I must defend it. That's not the way that it works sadly, I've offered a mechanic and if you have some thing conctructive to say about it then say some thing if your just here to ask why should I (meaning any DM) include this? It seems a little silly since I've never seen any one ever have to explain why a DM would want their track/mechanic/class/setting So why are you requiering that I give some reasoning now? I again return to my statment that your trying to put your self in the shoes of the comminuty as a whole with some of these comments and I don't really appricate it, the comminity can speak for them selves just fine.
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Mystify

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Re: Mechanic: Sunder
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2012, 11:52:29 PM »

It's not suppose to be easy >>
But is is supposed to be relevant, right?

Again your not adding any thing to the convorsation your just spoting off that you don't want to use it which doesn't help any one.
I was countering his point, which is central to the question of "what is this adding to the game". If part of the justification for doing this is "Its better than disarm because disarm can't do X", "disarm can do X" is a entirely relevant point to make.
And I stand by my question: "Why should I sunder his weapon over several turns when I could spend 1 turn to disarm it and pick it up"


... *deep breath* yes a lot of mechaince make other things useless like you know all those [Resistances] that you stack up by L20 you can make entier tracks meaningless so making some thing that happens to count another thing is a vaild option.

Layer 1: I have a high level weapon
Layer 2: I can disarm you
Layer 3: I may some of my weapons points, making it otherwise weaker, to avoid being disarmed
Layer 4: I will use a different combat manuever that fulfills the same role as disarm to take your weapon away anyways

Do you not see the problem with that last layer?


Well it looks like you were reading inbetween the lines cause you jumped on some thing that wasn't said. I also still fail to see where you getting the undermining of Legend from this would you PLEASE actuly give some examiples in my mechanics idea as to why it does that please point to what is breaking it instead of just saying "This would just undermine that" it's seriously not helping any one.
Because this is something with no extra investment that counters an ability requiring investment whose purpose is to counter the normal ability.

much saner long term consiquances...
"Well party I'm sorry but the fighers relic sword of much smiting has been stolen from by a rouge and will never be seen again."

vs

"Well the fighters sword got stolen, but he can get it again at the end of the [Quest]"
"A rogue disarms you, takes your weapon, and runs away, and you fail to catch him" Is nowhere near an typical case for disarm.
"I break your weapon into bits" is the exact purpose of sunder.
You are comparing the extreme edge case of an existing mechanic to your expected use case of a new mechanic, and saying that makes them equivalent.
When you can or cannot get items back isn't even specified, beyond the [Scene] for attuning rule. In fact, the entire paradigm of how and when you get items is left unspecified, beyond "You should have at least enough items to fill all your slots". This mechanic hinges on that unspecified component. Are their guilds that will replace your artifact between [Quests]?

You know I think a time limit till receiving it again seems a lot more ration then never being able to get it back.
Again,I never said they should never be able to get items back. You are saying your stance is saner than a stance that doesn't exist, instead of comparing it to what actually occurs in the game. Which is no random item loss.

Look at one of the new feats: Disjunction. Its purpose is to knock out a creature's magic items, including their weapon. First, notice that it is a high level feat. Second, notice it only halves the bonus. Third, notice this only lasts for a couple of round. Fourth, notice this takes a feat.
Disabling a creature's items beyond the scope of the encounter is not something the system is designed to deal with. Even when they design an ability specifically to knock out magic items, they don't take them away. It is not something that is intended to happen. You are making a mechanic that specifically causes it. Do you not see my concern?



Once again this is adding an option in the tool belt, I'm trying to understand why it is that you are trying to speak for the whole of the Legend cominity because that's what you're starting to come across as doing.
I'm not trying to speak for the community, I am saying this violates basic assumptions of the system.

@kitsune
what I am trying to get at is "What do you think this will add to a campaign". I wasn't trying to ask about my campaign specifically, but as a general parameter. What would anybody want to include this in a campaign- what value do you expect it to add?
This is what I'm talking about, you are trying to talk for the whole of Legend cominity as though the idea I have put forth is a blight on legend home brew and I must defend it. That's not the way that it works sadly, I've offered a mechanic and if you have some thing conctructive to say about it then say some thing if your just here to ask why should I (meaning any DM) include this? It seems a little silly since I've never seen any one ever have to explain why a DM would want their track/mechanic/class/setting So why are you requiering that I give some reasoning now? I again return to my statment that your trying to put your self in the shoes of the comminuty as a whole with some of these comments and I don't really appricate it, the comminity can speak for them selves just fine.
[/quote]
I feel like you are determined to misinterpret everything I say.
"Why should this be included" is a perfectly valid question to ask in game design. I'm not trying to imply that there isn't a reason, but there should be one, and knowing what that is helps direct the design process. I can't offer constructive criticism about how to make it perform its intended function better if you can't tell me what that function is.
From a player's perspective  "Why should I use this option?" needs an answer. "Why should I use trip?" "At low levels, you will get all of your damage, and make the enemy more vulnerable  if you succeed, and will eat into their actions" "Why should I use disarm?" "Because the enemy has a problematic weapon, and it will weaker their offense" "Why should I use bull rush?" "To gain a tactical advantage in the battle. You can move enemy's away from weaker allies, you can push them in range of an ally's abilities, you can create an opening in their defensive line, you can take advantage of the environmental dangers, etc"
"Why should I use sunder?" Needs an equivalent answer. If it exists, then say it. If it doesn't, you have a flaw in your design. Right now "Because the enemy has a problematic weapon" doesn't cut it, because that just shifts the question to "Why should I use sunder instead of disarm".
Give a real answer, don't complain that the question is being asked.
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Re: Mechanic: Sunder
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2012, 12:22:00 AM »
But is is supposed to be relevant, right?
It is...

And I stand by my question: "Why should I sunder his weapon over several turns when I could spend 1 turn to disarm it and pick it up"
Because the weapon is gone for good then, he could very easily take it back.

... *deep breath* yes a lot of mechaince make other things useless like you know all those [Resistances] that you stack up by L20 you can make entier tracks meaningless so making some thing that happens to count another thing is a vaild option.

Layer 1: I have a high level weapon
Layer 2: I can disarm you
Layer 3: I may some of my weapons points, making it otherwise weaker, to avoid being disarmed
Layer 4: I will use a different combat manuever that fulfills the same role as disarm to take your weapon away anyways
Do you not see the problem with that last layer?
I see a problem alright its called wording some thing so that it sounds irrelevent. This is ment as another option to disarm.


Because this is something with no extra investment that counters an ability requiring investment whose purpose is to counter the normal ability.
I have no idea what you just said... please reword for clearity.
"A rogue disarms you, takes your weapon, and runs away, and you fail to catch him" Is nowhere near an typical case for disarm.
"I break your weapon into bits" is the exact purpose of sunder.
You are comparing the extreme edge case of an existing mechanic to your expected use case of a new mechanic, and saying that makes them equivalent.
When you can or cannot get items back isn't even specified, beyond the [Scene] for attuning rule. In fact, the entire paradigm of how and when you get items is left unspecified, beyond "You should have at least enough items to fill all your slots". This mechanic hinges on that unspecified component. Are their guilds that will replace your artifact between [Quests]?
So you can come up with extream cases and irational events but i can't. I'll have to keep that in mind for the futere.
And the last paragraph is my point exactly.

Again,I never said they should never be able to get items back. You are saying your stance is saner than a stance that doesn't exist, instead of comparing it to what actually occurs in the game. Which is no random item loss.
Nor did I say you say that. The rules have no stance on that their for it is left up to DM disgression and their for can be gotten from the end of that [Encounter] to... [Never]. So ya....

Look at one of the new feats: Disjunction. Its purpose is to knock out a creature's magic items, including their weapon. First, notice that it is a high level feat. Second, notice it only halves the bonus. Third, notice this only lasts for a couple of round. Fourth, notice this takes a feat.
Disabling a creature's items beyond the scope of the encounter is not something the system is designed to deal with. Even when they design an ability specifically to knock out magic items, they don't take them away. It is not something that is intended to happen. You are making a mechanic that specifically causes it. Do you not see my concern?
Stop posting unreleased content it's not aloud on this site.

I'm not trying to speak for the community, I am saying this violates basic assumptions of the system.
You have asserted your self in the comminuties place several times, and it does no such thing. I'm sure that a Dev team would metion such a huge violation of the system so I think we will leave that level of critque to them rather then assurting our selves into possitions of athority well also trying to protray the comminity as a whole.

Ok here comes some peice meal again.

I feel like you are determined to misinterpret everything I say.
Well that was rather personal and had absolutly nothing to do with the convosation please stop getting so far off track.

"Why should this be included" is a perfectly valid question to ask in game design.
I again ask why this is never asked of any one else. So no it's not valid to applie one rule to me and not to other rather it's silly.

I'm not trying to imply that there isn't a reason, but there should be one, and knowing what that is helps direct the design process.
So by not implieing it you mean your out right saying it has no purpose... you right that's not implication that's directly saying it.

I can't offer constructive criticism about how to make it perform its intended function better if you can't tell me what that function is.
to sunder the opponets weapon, wow strait forward just like the first time you asked.

From a player's perspective  "Why should I use this option?" needs an answer.
Again stop trying to make me answer question that are not part of the home brew your waisting both of our times.

If it exists, then say it. If it doesn't, you have a flaw in your design. Right now "Because the enemy has a problematic weapon" doesn't cut it, because that just shifts the question to "Why should I use sunder instead of disarm".
I don't need to answer questions that don't acomplish any thing.

Give a real answer, don't complain that the question is being asked.
I see, now we are getting closer and closer to flaming territory.
That being said, I don't thing you really understand what complaining is.
Complain: Express dissatisfaction or annoyance about a state of affairs or an event.
Well I'm not dissatisfied that's for sure, I know I'm not annoided I love these things. So I would say I'm more asking you to stop demanding more of me then is expected of any one else. Your not the dev team and your not the community I would appriciate it if you stopped appilying your self to those roles.
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Re: Mechanic: Sunder
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2012, 12:44:40 AM »
Dial it down. Disarm, back to your corners and cool it. You're both pushing the envelope and there's a hostility level in this thread that needs to come way down.

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Re: Mechanic: Sunder
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2012, 12:58:59 AM »
That feat was released a few weeks ago.
http://www.ruleofcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/New-Feats-3.pdf

"To sunder their weapon" is not a real answer to "why do you want to add a sunder mechanic". That is just providing a circular answer.
I don't normally ask the question because its normally more self-evident.
These questions are not a waste of time. They are part of basic design. A mechanic should have a purpose. You should look at how it relates to other mechanics. I am trying to help you, not spew out negativity for no reason.

I may not be the dev team, but I have studied game design, and you are dismissing foundational design principles as irrelevant. I am trying to help you make this work, and to do that we need to first establish what you are trying to accomplish. Ok, you want to sunder things. That is self evident and not a helpful answer. Please, think about this seriously.
I am pointing out flaws in how you are going about it, not to say "This sucks and you should feel bad for making it", but to figure out ways it needs improvement. I am trying to go through a process with you, and you are getting defensive at the first steps instead of thinking about what I am saying. Being defensive of your design is not conducive to improving it.

Please, calm down. This isn't getting us anywhere.
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Re: Mechanic: Sunder
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2012, 01:21:35 AM »
*deep breath* ok calmer now, sorry ai kinda enjoy debate and argument so I was defintly was taking that way to far. Sorry to Mistfy and the board in general.

Round 2:
Sorry I missed that one ^^ thanks though I was wondering why their was no more feats released.

It isn't an answer but I guess the heart of the issue is that I just wanted to make the sunder mechanic in case you, I don't know needwd to break the evil orb of power before the widard of zebulon concored the world. Admittedly I was think of this a lot more the the DM to player side so that is why the short fights didn't bug me. In the end to answer your question I just want some thing that isn't comperable to disarm. I am looking for a mechanic th could be used to destroy things that you don't want.

Ok example time, in my mythos the major evil.v has an avitar (basicly high level underling) and this underling weilds a staff that is basically raw evil and possess who.ever touches it. There are a fee things that the PC just doesn't want to touch but wanta destrioed. I can see your point because your right this isn't useful for the standard enco unter. But there are a few cases that
 It could be a valid choice, maybe not for all settings but for those who would need a simialr effect they could look at this to maybe?

Ok much better ^^ happy sune again. Sorry for getting out of hand I'll try to watch my self in the future.
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Re: Mechanic: Sunder
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2012, 01:52:17 AM »
Ok. That is a much clearer goal.

I don't think that sundering works very well as a general mechanic. I can see where it could have a place in specific situations, but it would probably be better to create that according to the situation.

For instance: what if the evil staff is a character itself? Maybe a shaman/tactician with runesong, or some similar castery build. Fluff-wise, it is such a powerful item that it allows the wielder to bring forth that much extra firepower. This now gives it hp, defenses, and it can be slain. You attack the staff, eventually "sundering" it, and this cuts off the wizard's extra  power.

Or, for a simpler approach, assign the relevant item some stats. "This is the evil orb. It has 50 hp, and an AC equal to the wielder(since the wielder is actively protecting it)."

Or even use the power of refluffing. Instead of "I use a standard action to disarm him and a move action to pick up the item", make it "I use a standard action to smash the staff, knocking it out of his hand, and a move action to deliver a final blow, destroying it". Simple, keeps in line with existing mechanics, and fits with legend's philosophy of refluffing.

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