Author Topic: The Whirlwind: Two-Weapon Fighting in a Track  (Read 5717 times)

Timeless Error

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The Whirlwind: Two-Weapon Fighting in a Track
« on: March 11, 2012, 09:05:16 PM »
The Whirlwind

OK, I'm going to take a shot at Legend homebrew.  I am, however, by no means experienced, so take this for what it is: a first try by an interested but unrefined game design dilettante.

All abilities of the Whirlwind track are Extraordinary unless otherwise noted.

1st Circle - Ambidexterity: You have learned to make use of two melee weapons at once in combat.  In order to use this ability, you must be holding two weapons - one in each hand.  You may now use two weapons at once.  Select one of these weapons to be your primary weapon, and one to be your off-hand weapon.  Whenever you take an attack action with your primary weapon, you may, at any point during that attack action, make an Ambidextrous Strike with your off-hand weapon.  An Ambidextrous Strike uses a d20 modified by your highest base attack bonus plus your KOM opposed to its target's AC to determine whether or not it hits, and deals the weapon's base damage.  This does not count as an attack, and is not modified by any effects that would change the attack or damage result (such as a damage-increasing feat, or the attacker being [Blinded]).  A weapon with more than one application of the [Brutal] property may not be used as an off-hand weapon for the purposes of this track.

2nd Circle - Tempest Defense: With twice as many weapons to parry with, you become an insurmountable, untouchable obstacle.  When fighting with a weapon in each hand, you gain a deflection bonus to AC equal to the number of circles you have in Whirlwind.

3rd Circle - Two-Weapon Rend: Your weapons pierce through armor and rip flesh.  Once per [Round], if you hit the same opponent with both your weapons on the same turn, you may deal extra damage equal to your character level.
       Hack and Slash: Additionally, you may make a second Ambidextrous Strike whenever you make an attack action.

4th Circle - Spinning Assault: You learn to make opportunistic attacks to supplement elaborate combat maneuvers.  Whenever you make an attack of opportunity or initiate a Bull Rush, Disarm, or Trip, you may make a single Ambidextrous Strike.
       Piercing Blows: Additionally, your Ambidextrous Strikes become more accurate and deadly.  Whenever you make an Ambidextrous Strike, you gain a +3 bonus to hit and deal an extra 1d6 damage.

5th Circle - Dervish Dance: Your attacks shred your opponents into pieces, leaving them weary and crippled.  Whenever you use your Two-Weapon Rend ability, the opponent you hit becomes [Battered] and [Bleeding] for three rounds.
       Wind of Cuts: Additionally, you may make a third Ambidextrous Strike whenever you make an attack action.

6th Circle - Whirlwind Tornado: You leap across the battlefield, tearing into your foes before they can flee.  Once per [Round], as a swift action, whenever you take an attack action, you may take an extra attack with your off-hand weapon.  This is not an Ambidextrous Strike, and thus benefits from various modifiers to attack and damage, as well as other factors that could alter the results of a normal attack (but not the bonuses granted by the Piercing Blows ability).  This is not a [Bonus attack].
       Lightning Leap: Additionally, your swiftness startles your foes, allowing you to act before they even have a chance to move, as time seems to stand still around you.  You may add half your level to initiative checks.

7th Circle - Rain of Blades: When wounded, you gain the ability to make vicious counterattacks.  Once per [Encounter], as an immediate action, you may make an attack action against an opponent who has just successfully attacked you.
       True Whirlwind: Additionally, you may make a fourth Ambidextrous Strike whenever you make an attack action.

Old, Discarded Version
1st Circle - Ambidexterity: You have learned to effectively use two weapons at once in melee combat.  When fighting with a weapon in each hand, you may, as part of a standard action full attack, make one single secondary melee attack at your full base attack bonus, but at a -2 penalty (if your secondary weapon is one-handed) or at a -1 penalty (if your secondary weapon is Hold-Out).

2nd Circle - Tempest Defense: With twice as many weapons to parry with, you become an insurmountable, untouchable obstacle.  When fighting with a double weapon, or a weapon in each hand, you gain a deflection bonus to AC equal to the number of circles you have in Whirlwind.

3rd Circle - Two-Weapon Rend: Your weapons pierce through armor and rip flesh.  Once a round, if you hit the same opponent with both your weapons on the same turn, you may deal extra damage equal to your character level.

4th Circle - Spinning Assault: Your swiftly moving attacks become even faster.  When you make a standard action attack using Ambidexterity, you may make an another secondary attack at the same penalty.  Whenever you make an attack of opportunity or initiate a Bull Rush, Disarm, or Trip, you may make a single secondary attack with your secondary weapon at a -2 penalty (if your secondary weapon is one-handed) or at a -1 penalty (if your secondary weapon is Hold-Out).

5th Circle - Dervish Dance: The penalty to secondary attacks made with Ambidexterity or Spinning Assault is reduced by 1.  Additionally, whenever your Two-Weapon Rend ability activates, the opponent you hit becomes [Battered] and [Bleeding] for three rounds.

6th Circle - Whirlwind Tornado: You leap across the battlefield, tearing into your foes before they can flee.  You gain a +6 bonus to initiative checks and any one [Combat] feat (which you must meet the prerequisites for), but you only have access to these benefits while wielding two weapons at once.

7th Circle - Rain of Blades: You are a devastating barrage of unrelenting attacks.  Opponents quail before your ferocious onslaught and rarely attack you for fear of retaliation.  You no longer suffer any penalty to attack rolls for making secondary attacks with secondary weapons, nor do you suffer a penalty to attacks when you use the Flurry combat maneuver.  Once per [Encounter], as an immediate action, you may unleash a full attack (including all bonus secondary attacks granted by this track) against an opponent who has just attacked you (assuming that attack did not kill you or otherwise prevent you from making an attack).

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« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 06:13:32 PM by Timeless Error »
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Re: The Whirlwind: Two-Weapon Fighting in a Track
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2012, 09:31:07 PM »
-You can already do flurry at lvl 1 with any class (allows you a extra attack but take a -2 to hit) so you might want to change the first circle

-Need to check other wise but I think most extra damage has a staking category (precision/fury) if not your fine, but if so you should state where it goes.

Not sure of the others.

Will be interesting if this works out once finessed. Some of my friends like DW so any fluff/abilities would be nice.

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Re: The Whirlwind: Two-Weapon Fighting in a Track
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2012, 09:36:03 PM »
Extra attacks are ... iffy, at best, and it's one of those things which is up to be torn apart by rabid contributors. By 5th circle this track gets you two of them on any attack action, full stop (I suspect that's not your intent, but the wording for Ambidexterity and Spinning Assault works out that way - even if it didn't, this would still be a problem).

Whirlwind Tornado bugs me. Feats and Circles should usually be discreet.

I wish I had a clear sense of what advice to give, but TWF is tough to build functional mechanics around. A more defensive, less D&D-esque take on this track (parry with one blade, attack with the other) might work out better in the end.
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Re: The Whirlwind: Two-Weapon Fighting in a Track
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2012, 09:40:22 PM »
1st circle: allows you to flurry under a different name, and reduce the penalty by 1 if you have a holdout weapon. underpowered compared to discipline of the serpent 1st circle.
4th circle: expands on your "flurry" and functions as the 7th circle knight ability. as a 4th.
5th. again DotS 1st circle is better for a "flurry". otherwise ok, i guess.
7th. functions the same as DotS 1st circle, with some extra.

and i quote the rulebook:  Two-Weapon Fighting
Two-weapon fighting, in the sense of gaining extra attack rolls, is dead. The only instance in which one wields two different weapons and does not treat them as a single Main weapon is if the weapons differ in their range categories (for example, a pirate wielding a pistol in one hand and a sword in the other). If this happens, you must choose to divide up attack rolls between the two weapons. Of course, you can assign all your attack rolls to one weapon, holding the other in reserve for when it becomes tactically superior.

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Re: The Whirlwind: Two-Weapon Fighting in a Track
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2012, 10:49:57 PM »
I agree, extra attacks are problematic. they specifically removed that mechanic from dual weilding. Honestly, If I want to play a dervish type character, I'd just use discipline of the serpent with the weapon master option, use a pair of weapons, and fluff the flurry to a double attack. The precision damage fits well with the typical two weapon concept, focusing on speed and precision. way of the hydra can either be fluffed to to exemplary dodging capabilities, or to a poisoned blade thing. Deftly striking fits the concept to a t, touch of death can be a devastating strike, then white lotus palm and thousand sudden cuts again match the concept excellently.

Now, also consider what happens when you pair these two tracks.
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Re: The Whirlwind: Two-Weapon Fighting in a Track
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2012, 10:54:52 PM »
Huh... my thought was maybe make Ambidextrous simply require two special-to-holdout weapons, deal 2d6 + KOM damage, and let you select on of the special weapons to "lead", which lets you use its special Weapon Property, as well.
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Re: The Whirlwind: Two-Weapon Fighting in a Track
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2012, 03:51:09 AM »
I love this track seems pretty balanced with a few flaws.

1st circle- Make this apply only on full attacks. (3 attacks at level 1 with a -1/-1/-3 woot!)

2nd circle- balanced

3rd- its not precision or furry but its balanced due to once per round.

4th- this one needs to remove the application of TWF on charges, 3 attacks on a charge is devastating...

5th- great

6th- this is also a problem, a free combat feat would allow for 2 weapon style feats working at once. This might be the intention but i don't agree with it. How about "whenever you make a full attack with both weapons you deal KOM DMG to all adjacent foes and gain concealment for 1 round" keeping the bonus to init however"

7th-  I'm all for powerful 7th circle but this... "Alright so here's the deal if you don't kill me on your TURN ill unleash UBW on you"
(F/SN reference) How about all attacks have a -2 to hit or this leaves you fatigued for the next round? I love this ability but this should cause much strain on your character.
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Re: The Whirlwind: Two-Weapon Fighting in a Track
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2012, 03:18:05 PM »
All right, let me see if I can address a few of the concerns here.  Answers are in bold inside the quotes they're responding to.
-You can already do flurry at lvl 1 with any class (allows you a extra attack but take a -2 to hit) so you might want to change the first circle

The first circle stacks with flurry, so it's still useful.

-Need to check other wise but I think most extra damage has a staking category (precision/fury) if not your fine, but if so you should state where it goes.

The track is mostly extra attacks, not extra damage (with the exception of Two-Weapon Rend and Dervish Dance, which I could turn into a fury bonus if necessary).

Not sure of the others.

Will be interesting if this works out once finessed. Some of my friends like DW so any fluff/abilities would be nice.

I'm glad you're interested.

Extra attacks are ... iffy, at best, and it's one of those things which is up to be torn apart by rabid contributors. By 5th circle this track gets you two of them on any attack action, full stop (I suspect that's not your intent, but the wording for Ambidexterity and Spinning Assault works out that way - even if it didn't, this would still be a problem).

Well...is it really more problematic than any other offensive track?  Assuming we replace, say, Discipline of the Serpent (which adds an average of 27 damage to each of five attacks by level 20) with this (which adds two extra attacks - and usually a two-weapon rend - by level 20), it seems like it would come out balanced.\

As to my wording, is the problem that Ambidexterity already works on combat maneuvers by RAW?  If so, I can fix that.


Whirlwind Tornado bugs me. Feats and Circles should usually be discreet.

The first circle of the undead racial track, consumption, grants the benefits of either My Name Is War, I Am Not Left Handed, or Kensai on a Skeletal Champion.

I wish I had a clear sense of what advice to give, but TWF is tough to build functional mechanics around. A more defensive, less D&D-esque take on this track (parry with one blade, attack with the other) might work out better in the end.

Perhaps you're right, but my goal for this project is to make D&D-esque two-weapon fighting possible.  With a system as versatile as Legend, I believe one should be able to simulate something like that adequately.

1st circle: allows you to flurry under a different name, and reduce the penalty by 1 if you have a holdout weapon. underpowered compared to discipline of the serpent 1st circle.

As I mentioned earlier, this stacks with flurrying.  Flurry grants one extra attack on an attack action at -2, so you gain two extra attacks this way instead of one.

4th circle: expands on your "flurry" and functions as the 7th circle knight ability. as a 4th.

Does it really?  The Knight seventh circle allows you to use combat maneuvers in place of opportunity attacks.  This allows you to make a secondary attack on opportunity attacks and some combat maneuvers.  I don't see much of a mechanical similarity, other than Knights being able to flurry on attacks of opportunity.

5th. again DotS 1st circle is better for a "flurry". otherwise ok, i guess.

As I mentioned earlier, flurry would stack with this, so I don't think it's a problem.

7th. functions the same as DotS 1st circle, with some extra.

...What?  Does immediately unleashing six or seven attacks on your opponent in response to them attacking you once per encounter count as "some extra"?  I thought that ability was rather strong, myself.

and i quote the rulebook:  Two-Weapon Fighting
Two-weapon fighting, in the sense of gaining extra attack rolls, is dead. The only instance in which one wields two different weapons and does not treat them as a single Main weapon is if the weapons differ in their range categories (for example, a pirate wielding a pistol in one hand and a sword in the other). If this happens, you must choose to divide up attack rolls between the two weapons. Of course, you can assign all your attack rolls to one weapon, holding the other in reserve for when it becomes tactically superior.

I am aware of that little passage.  I wanted to try this anyway, because the absence of this option is something that annoys me.

I agree, extra attacks are problematic. they specifically removed that mechanic from dual weilding. Honestly, If I want to play a dervish type character, I'd just use discipline of the serpent with the weapon master option, use a pair of weapons, and fluff the flurry to a double attack. The precision damage fits well with the typical two weapon concept, focusing on speed and precision. way of the hydra can either be fluffed to to exemplary dodging capabilities, or to a poisoned blade thing. Deftly striking fits the concept to a t, touch of death can be a devastating strike, then white lotus palm and thousand sudden cuts again match the concept excellently.

I agree that this is the closest thing to two-weapon fighting that exists in Legend, but it doesn't actually grant a mechanical advantage for wielding two weapons when one would work just as well.

Now, also consider what happens when you pair these two tracks.

Do you think it's that much worse than pairing two other offensive tracks?  With Discipline of the Serpent and Whirlwind together, you get a total of seven attacks, each with 6d8 precision damage, but if you put Discipline of the Serpent on, say, Smiting, you can get just as much if not more in the way of sheer offensive ability.

Huh... my thought was maybe make Ambidextrous simply require two special-to-holdout weapons, deal 2d6 + KOM damage, and let you select on of the special weapons to "lead", which lets you use its special Weapon Property, as well.

Well, that's certainly much simpler than what I did, and would probably work just as well if you want a simple solution.  I thought that a track would be a more interesting way to do it, though.

I love this track seems pretty balanced with a few flaws.

I'm glad you like it so much!

1st circle- Make this apply only on full attacks. (3 attacks at level 1 with a -1/-1/-3 woot!)

That was my intention all along, but I'll clarify that now.

2nd circle- balanced

3rd- its not precision or furry but its balanced due to once per round.

4th- this one needs to remove the application of TWF on charges, 3 attacks on a charge is devastating...

Good point, I'll fix that.

5th- great

6th- this is also a problem, a free combat feat would allow for 2 weapon style feats working at once. This might be the intention but i don't agree with it. How about "whenever you make a full attack with both weapons you deal KOM DMG to all adjacent foes and gain concealment for 1 round" keeping the bonus to init however"

OK, the bonus combat feat has met with more than a few complaints now.  I suppose I'll consider how to replace it.  I like your suggestion, it adds a little more of a defensive side to the track and allows it to take on multiple opponents well, which is good.  I guess I'll mull this over a little more.

7th-  I'm all for powerful 7th circle but this... "Alright so here's the deal if you don't kill me on your TURN ill unleash UBW on you"
(F/SN reference) How about all attacks have a -2 to hit or this leaves you fatigued for the next round? I love this ability but this should cause much strain on your character.
Fatigued for the next round sounds good.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 03:49:48 PM by Timeless Error »
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Re: The Whirlwind: Two-Weapon Fighting in a Track
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2012, 04:01:50 PM »
The issue with getting extra attacks is bonus damage. Extra attacks may be all well and good on their own, but they get proportionally more powerful when combined with Smiting, or Assassin, or Discipline of the Serpent, or Iron Magi, or Knight, or really any other source of significant bonus damage.

Even Discipline of the Serpent, which is the big "extra attack" track at present, is under review. As is, I believe, the Flurry maneuver in general.
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Re: The Whirlwind: Two-Weapon Fighting in a Track
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2012, 04:17:30 PM »
The issue with getting extra attacks is bonus damage. Extra attacks may be all well and good on their own, but they get proportionally more powerful when combined with Smiting, or Assassin, or Discipline of the Serpent, or Iron Magi, or Knight, or really any other source of significant bonus damage.

Even Discipline of the Serpent, which is the big "extra attack" track at present, is under review. As is, I believe, the Flurry maneuver in general.

I see.  But would be two direct bonus damage tracks be worse than one bonus damage track plus one extra attack track?

For example: a Sage with Just Blade has Elementalist and Discipline of the Serpent.  At level twenty, their standard attack routine will be five attacks, each dealing the base weapon damage plus 6d8, with the first attack in that routine dealing 20d6.  Assuming that three out of those five attacks hit, and their base damage is, say, 2d6+10, they'll deal an average of 202 damage in a full attack routine.

Compare: a Monk has Whirlwind and Discipline of the Serpent.  At level twenty, their standard attack routine will be seven attacks, each dealing the base weapon damage plus 6d8.  Assuming that four of the seven attacks hit (getting two two-weapon rends in), and their base weapon damage is, say, 2d6+10, they'll deal an average of 216 damage.  This is not such a huge discrepancy.  Of course, it gets excessive if more of the attacks start hitting, but an appropriate challenge at that level should have enough of a good defense to deflect the lower iteratives.

Now, I guess the Whirlwind has a higher potential to do damage (and that attack routine twice over with Thousand Sudden Cuts is deadly - but that's a 1/encounter 7th circle), but in terms of actual averages, it comes out to roughly the same.  Perhaps I should cut the second extra attack gained at 4th circle to make things more sane?

That's my brief (and, in all likelihood, heavily flawed) analysis.  What am I missing?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 04:20:04 PM by Timeless Error »
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Re: The Whirlwind: Two-Weapon Fighting in a Track
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2012, 04:44:14 PM »
Extra attacks are a problem, and extant tracks that focus on them are likely to be changed.

Bonus feats in general, particularly low-level bonus feats, are also a problem, and extant tracks that get them are likely to be changed.

The Undead track in general is likely to be changed pretty substantially, and is not a good choice for comparison.
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Re: The Whirlwind: Two-Weapon Fighting in a Track
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2012, 06:11:21 PM »
The issue with getting extra attacks is bonus damage. Extra attacks may be all well and good on their own, but they get proportionally more powerful when combined with Smiting, or Assassin, or Discipline of the Serpent, or Iron Magi, or Knight, or really any other source of significant bonus damage.

Even Discipline of the Serpent, which is the big "extra attack" track at present, is under review. As is, I believe, the Flurry maneuver in general.

I see.  But would be two direct bonus damage tracks be worse than one bonus damage track plus one extra attack track?

For example: a Sage with Just Blade has Elementalist and Discipline of the Serpent.  At level twenty, their standard attack routine will be five attacks, each dealing the base weapon damage plus 6d8, with the first attack in that routine dealing 20d6.  Assuming that three out of those five attacks hit, and their base damage is, say, 2d6+10, they'll deal an average of 202 damage in a full attack routine.

Compare: a Monk has Whirlwind and Discipline of the Serpent.  At level twenty, their standard attack routine will be seven attacks, each dealing the base weapon damage plus 6d8.  Assuming that four of the seven attacks hit (getting two two-weapon rends in), and their base weapon damage is, say, 2d6+10, they'll deal an average of 216 damage.  This is not such a huge discrepancy.  Of course, it gets excessive if more of the attacks start hitting, but an appropriate challenge at that level should have enough of a good defense to deflect the lower iteratives.

Now, I guess the Whirlwind has a higher potential to do damage (and that attack routine twice over with Thousand Sudden Cuts is deadly - but that's a 1/encounter 7th circle), but in terms of actual averages, it comes out to roughly the same.  Perhaps I should cut the second extra attack gained at 4th circle to make things more sane?

That's my brief (and, in all likelihood, heavily flawed) analysis.  What am I missing?
But also consider how smiting interacts. All of those misses add up to more accuracy, which again raises the percentage of attacks that hit. And you are getting bonuses for hitting multiple times in a row, so more attacks makes that even more effective. Also consider that just blade has to spend a swift action to get that damage, and some of that damage offers a save. Then you have things like And My Axe! which will give you extra damage for every time you hit them, and you can quickly build up a TON of extra damage per hit. Or if you have kensai as well, you  discard the lowest attack each round, get a point of focus, increase your accuracy, and negate an attack against you. Oh, and having more attacks also means that all of the tracks with abilities that negate a single attack can defend against it worse, in contrast with just blade where they can knock out the channeled spell-like with it. Or if you throw in reckless strike, power attack, and you now have a huge damage boost getting multiplied across extra attacks.
There is a reason they only allow you one [Bonus Attack] a round. It is a limit to prevent you from stacking on extra attacks all over the place. Your mechanics completely bypass it.
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Re: The Whirlwind: Two-Weapon Fighting in a Track
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2012, 06:38:03 PM »
The issue with getting extra attacks is bonus damage. Extra attacks may be all well and good on their own, but they get proportionally more powerful when combined with Smiting, or Assassin, or Discipline of the Serpent, or Iron Magi, or Knight, or really any other source of significant bonus damage.

Even Discipline of the Serpent, which is the big "extra attack" track at present, is under review. As is, I believe, the Flurry maneuver in general.

I see.  But would be two direct bonus damage tracks be worse than one bonus damage track plus one extra attack track?

For example: a Sage with Just Blade has Elementalist and Discipline of the Serpent.  At level twenty, their standard attack routine will be five attacks, each dealing the base weapon damage plus 6d8, with the first attack in that routine dealing 20d6.  Assuming that three out of those five attacks hit, and their base damage is, say, 2d6+10, they'll deal an average of 202 damage in a full attack routine.

Compare: a Monk has Whirlwind and Discipline of the Serpent.  At level twenty, their standard attack routine will be seven attacks, each dealing the base weapon damage plus 6d8.  Assuming that four of the seven attacks hit (getting two two-weapon rends in), and their base weapon damage is, say, 2d6+10, they'll deal an average of 216 damage.  This is not such a huge discrepancy.  Of course, it gets excessive if more of the attacks start hitting, but an appropriate challenge at that level should have enough of a good defense to deflect the lower iteratives.

Now, I guess the Whirlwind has a higher potential to do damage (and that attack routine twice over with Thousand Sudden Cuts is deadly - but that's a 1/encounter 7th circle), but in terms of actual averages, it comes out to roughly the same.  Perhaps I should cut the second extra attack gained at 4th circle to make things more sane?

That's my brief (and, in all likelihood, heavily flawed) analysis.  What am I missing?
But also consider how smiting interacts. All of those misses add up to more accuracy, which again raises the percentage of attacks that hit. And you are getting bonuses for hitting multiple times in a row, so more attacks makes that even more effective. Also consider that just blade has to spend a swift action to get that damage, and some of that damage offers a save. Then you have things like And My Axe! which will give you extra damage for every time you hit them, and you can quickly build up a TON of extra damage per hit. Or if you have kensai as well, you  discard the lowest attack each round, get a point of focus, increase your accuracy, and negate an attack against you. Oh, and having more attacks also means that all of the tracks with abilities that negate a single attack can defend against it worse, in contrast with just blade where they can knock out the channeled spell-like with it. Or if you throw in reckless strike, power attack, and you now have a huge damage boost getting multiplied across extra attacks.
There is a reason they only allow you one [Bonus Attack] a round. It is a limit to prevent you from stacking on extra attacks all over the place. Your mechanics completely bypass it.

OK, I guess I'm defending a lost cause here.  I guess I'll think about this some more, and come back to this if I concoct a reasonable solution.
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Djtooth

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Re: The Whirlwind: Two-Weapon Fighting in a Track
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2012, 06:41:19 PM »

Compare: a Monk has Whirlwind and Discipline of the Serpent.  At level twenty, their standard attack routine will be seven attacks, each dealing the base weapon damage plus 6d8.  Assuming that four of the seven attacks hit (getting two two-weapon rends in), and their base weapon damage is, say, 2d6+10, they'll deal an average of 216 damage.  This is not such a huge discrepancy.  Of course, it gets excessive if more of the attacks start hitting, but an appropriate challenge at that level should have enough of a good defense to deflect the lower iteratives.

That's my brief (and, in all likelihood, heavily flawed) analysis.  What am I missing?

According to your mechanic you may only have one rend per round.
Was it intended to have multiple rends? Because its balanced with only one.
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Re: The Whirlwind: Two-Weapon Fighting in a Track
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2012, 06:43:31 PM »

Compare: a Monk has Whirlwind and Discipline of the Serpent.  At level twenty, their standard attack routine will be seven attacks, each dealing the base weapon damage plus 6d8.  Assuming that four of the seven attacks hit (getting two two-weapon rends in), and their base weapon damage is, say, 2d6+10, they'll deal an average of 216 damage.  This is not such a huge discrepancy.  Of course, it gets excessive if more of the attacks start hitting, but an appropriate challenge at that level should have enough of a good defense to deflect the lower iteratives.

That's my brief (and, in all likelihood, heavily flawed) analysis.  What am I missing?

According to your mechanic you may only have one rend per round.
Was it intended to have multiple rends? Because its balanced with only one.

Excuse me, I misspoke mistyped.  I had forgotten my own "once-a-round" rule.  Long day, mind is clouded by fatigue, etcetera etcetera.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 06:45:19 PM by Timeless Error »
Thanks to Aruius on GitP for creating my excellent avatar!

This space is dedicated to Nezzy, the noblest Roden of them all.  May he rest in peace and be undisturbed by toxic chemicals.

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--Timeless Error, Emerald Knight