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Legend System Discussion => Legend Homebrew => The Abandoned Laboratory => Topic started by: chaos_redefined on July 03, 2015, 08:27:21 PM

Title: Large and in Charge
Post by: chaos_redefined on July 03, 2015, 08:27:21 PM
(mod edit: Large and In Charge (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dwF_7WexFfF71WO_53gsTrFGBHZp9Bp360Oz4aq5GLI/edit)
The second post-beta track to be conceived and the first to be executed, Large and In Charge (with a pending rename to Behemoth for inclusion in the Monster Guide) was originally intended to complement Dragon and Utter Brute.
)

So, working through this...

First circle: Normally I'd be weirded out by two natural attacks at first circle, but this track rewards you for using natural attacks, so making one of them ranged and one of them melee is a thing.  You don't wanna be switching out to a third weapon.  Battleforged might actually be a reasonable feat on this track even.  (Smacking someone and throwing rocks at someone seems reasonable)

Big Swings becomes relatively redundant at 3rd circle, when your melee range becomes rather large.  I think it might outpace other characters close range.  On the other hand, an extra weapon property never goes out of style.

Second circle: In the default rules, there is only one way to gain [Immunity] to [Ground] before 5th level ([Fly] speed from the Dragon track).  So, that aspect isn't gonna come up often.  Other than that, I believe it is fine.

Third circle: That much reach is worrying.  I'm not sure if it breaks anything though, so I'm skeptically cautious at the moment.  But I do look forward to playing a Large and in Charge Knight or Large and in Charge Disciple of the Serpent.  (I wanna see how this compares to a regular characters close range.  It might even come out ahead.)

Fourth circle: Seems reasonable.  Moving right along.

Fifth circle: Don't like the name.  You aren't growing.  You're just stomping around.  Now you stomp harder.

Sixth circle: So, you essentially gain [Lesser Resistance] to all damage, which stacks with your previous, and you up your [Fast Healing] from KDM to level-based.  I think it could use a bit of a bump, to be honest.

Seventh circle: I'd be tempted to add something about stopping swift actions to get up, but not certain.

Of particular note, I kinda wish this had something in general to stop swift actions to get up within [Close] range.  Maybe, as an attack of oppurtunity, if an enemy within your [Close] range stands up from [Prone] as a swift action, you may use a ranged natural attack against them?  Not sure where it goes or what it would replace.
Title: Re: Large and in Charge
Post by: Mystify on July 03, 2015, 09:03:05 PM
keep in mind your close range ALSO becomes rather large.

its 5th circle that makes it not a ground effect, so that is quite relevant.

its useful, but I don't think its melee range is that broken. melee ranges can be very large in legend as-is and it doesn't cause issues.

Title: Re: Large and in Charge
Post by: Epsilon Rose on July 05, 2015, 01:41:22 AM
It might be problematic with path of destruction, particularly if combined with Utter brute. At level 20, your melee range would be 85ft (compared to a normal character's 75ft close range). A lot of unpleasant things can be set to happen in that range, including a volley attack against, basically, everyone and auto damage against people attempting to use Sus, SLAs, or Spells in your melee range.

I don't know if that's actually broken, but it is certainly entertaining.
Title: Re: Large and in Charge
Post by: Mystify on July 05, 2015, 01:54:16 AM
And by that point, people can generally scatter far away from you if they so desire. Its certainly impressive, but within the power bounds of high level legend.
Title: Re: Large and in Charge
Post by: chaos_redefined on July 05, 2015, 06:14:01 AM
Well...  my concerns are...

Knight (extra attack of oppurtunity)
Path of Destruction (2nd and 3rd circles)
Discipline of the Serpent (Prone-locking an enemy)

Each of those comes online around the same time you get LaiC 3.
Title: Re: Large and in Charge
Post by: Mystify on July 05, 2015, 08:40:58 AM
They are potent combinations, but you can already get a pretty sizable melee range and it hasn't caused problems. You get a lot of tactical control, but its nothing a clever enemy can't avoid, generally.
Title: Re: Large and in Charge
Post by: Epsilon Rose on July 05, 2015, 10:34:14 AM
You can get sizable melee ranges, but I don't think you can normally sustain them being larger than your opponent's close range, which is where things become problematic. A lot of su and slas seem to be pegged to close range, so there wouldn't really be a strategic way to use them against someone who's melee range out ranges you. You either eat the damage and possible aoe or you don't target them and hope you can target someone else.
Title: Re: Large and in Charge
Post by: Mystify on July 05, 2015, 02:57:42 PM
true. its actually 90, since melee range increases for every size category above medium, and LaiC is huge.
so, normal reach at 20 is 25. an utter brute can add 15, and a reach weapon+huge is another 15. LaiC adds 35. If we adjusted it to5ft every odd circle, it would be +20, which is a bit more than  brute, but its more of a focus here. This would bring the total down to 75, and match close range with maximum investment.
Title: Re: Large and in Charge
Post by: chaos_redefined on July 05, 2015, 07:49:30 PM
As an alternative...  could we add some easy ways to expand the reach of close?  And would that fix the problem?
Title: Re: Large and in Charge
Post by: Mystify on July 05, 2015, 08:00:54 PM
it wouldn't. Unless everyone bothers to take it, in which case its overpowered.
Title: Re: Large and in Charge
Post by: chaos_redefined on July 05, 2015, 09:48:26 PM
Well, what if it were multiple things?

For example, [Arcane][Distant], a [Skill] feat option for perception that allows you to treat perceived enemies as one category closer, and, well, sophisticated now allows range-extention through [Distant], so an item is easy.
Title: Re: Large and in Charge
Post by: Mystify on July 05, 2015, 10:12:49 PM
Basically, your solution amounts to "make everybody else have longer range to counteract it". Thats just opening up an arms race, and doesn't solve any fundamental issues here.
Title: Re: Large and in Charge
Post by: chaos_redefined on July 05, 2015, 10:39:37 PM
Touche.  OK...  Probably should be every odd circle or something like that.
Title: Re: Large and in Charge
Post by: Epsilon Rose on July 06, 2015, 12:38:40 PM
That said, some ways to boost range (or the width on lines) might be interesting. Also, I want some more ways to get FoF on AoEs, but that probably can't be done.
Title: Re: Large and in Charge
Post by: Mystify on July 06, 2015, 12:44:11 PM
most lines go out to a specific range, so this would boost them already. Boosting the width is tricky, though. The existing size increases for areas never tries to do that.
Title: Re: Large and in Charge
Post by: Epsilon Rose on July 08, 2015, 09:05:47 PM
most lines go out to a specific range, so this would boost them already. Boosting the width is tricky, though. The existing size increases for areas never tries to do that.

I haven't found boosting the range of my line attacks to be particularly useful, especially when compared to a hypothetical width boost. Also, one of the legendary abilities doubles the width of lines.
Title: Re: Large and in Charge
Post by: Mystify on July 08, 2015, 10:15:33 PM
It does, but its also teh top, x4 multiplier, and it only does so by implication. Lengthing lines is mainly useful for more range, or in conjunction with bag of tricks.
Title: Re: Large and in Charge
Post by: Mystify on July 09, 2015, 01:20:28 PM
in regards to 6th circle needing a boost, it does have immunity to battered, which is a pretty big deal