Author Topic: Decreasing Everything's Hp  (Read 6885 times)

GreyMantle

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Decreasing Everything's Hp
« on: July 24, 2013, 01:43:33 PM »
Say I were to decrease everything's hp by a a factor of a third or something, but leave every other mechanic that interacts with hitpoints alone. To what extent would this fuck over Legend's underlying maths and make me a terrible person?

Mystify

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Re: Decreasing Everything's Hp
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2013, 02:17:38 PM »
Battles would be much shorter, healing has less of a chance to work, per-encounter things become more powerful, whilst longer term builds are unlikely to get a chance to function. Killing things in 1 round would become easy, so battles would end up very short and bloody, while healing is unlikely to get a chance to be applied.
For instance, I have a selection of build which operate around the 2/3 max hp mark for per-round damage output. This could bump them up to near universal 1-round kills.
KDM focus would become less viable, as you get 2/3 of the oomph from it, whilst the KOM focused builds have their baseline dropped by a third, making them overall more effective. This would make glass cannons even more common, which would accentuate the aforementioned issues.
The game would implode into rocket tag in a twisted mockery of all that is wrong with 3.5, angels would weep and the skies would fall, and it would all be your fault. Yours and yours alone.
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loganic

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Re: Decreasing Everything's Hp
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2013, 02:50:34 PM »
Think unreal tournament with insta-gib rockets, but for whatever reason other weapons are available, w/o insta-gib property. Everyone would go for the rocket.

High dex character would become the top predators with their high initiatives, and stealth.


GreyMantle

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Re: Decreasing Everything's Hp
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2013, 05:08:33 PM »
 :o
 :o
 :o

That's about what I figured. I don't mind playing rocket launcher tag in 3.5, but I feel like it would not be as enjoyable in Legend.

What about just thirding or halving the base class hp by level? That would not be quite as prominent, and it would not weaken KDM so much.

Mystify

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Re: Decreasing Everything's Hp
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2013, 05:12:49 PM »
:o
 :o
 :o

That's about what I figured. I don't mind playing rocket launcher tag in 3.5, but I feel like it would not be as enjoyable in Legend.

What about just thirding or halving the base class hp by level? That would not be quite as prominent, and it would not weaken KDM so much.
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Why do you feel the need to reduce people's hp?
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GreyMantle

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Re: Decreasing Everything's Hp
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2013, 05:25:20 PM »
I'm worried that combat resolution is likely to take a lengthy amount of time were I to run Legend with my group. I have like 6-8 regular players and almost half of them have never really shown the capacity to become especially rules savvy. An immediate (but clearly bad) way to make combat take less time would be to fix the rules such that everyone gets KO'd faster.

Mystify

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Re: Decreasing Everything's Hp
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2013, 05:40:02 PM »
I'm worried that combat resolution is likely to take a lengthy amount of time were I to run Legend with my group. I have like 6-8 regular players and almost half of them have never really shown the capacity to become especially rules savvy. An immediate (but clearly bad) way to make combat take less time would be to fix the rules such that everyone gets KO'd faster.
if you cut down on their hp and don't cut down on enemy hp, then its likely you will start killing them left and right. That is not going to improve the play experience. You will probably get much better results by encouraging the less proficient players to have simpler builds with few options so they can run through their turns faster. I've had a lot of experience playing in large groups, and making combat take fewer rounds doesn't improve the experience, you just feel like you didn't get to accomplish anything after all of the waiting,  doubly so if you get killed really quickly. And if your turn ends up being a dud, its even worse. "I waited 2 hours to miss, then got ganked" is not a fun game experience, and this makes that scenario much more likely. It is better for combat to be long and interesting than shorter and boring. Speed of play is much more important than battle length.
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Tim4488

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Re: Decreasing Everything's Hp
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2013, 05:42:29 PM »
Have people roll their damage dice at the same time as their attack roll. Multiple attacks, multiple dice, each color coded (red d20 and red d6 for first attack, blue d20 and blue d6 for second, or whatever). Try to nag people into planning out their actions ahead of time, though I know that one can be hard to enforce. I know a lot of people have successfully used egg timers as well. Allow for averages of extremely large dice rolls, or even partial averages (10d6 becomes 18+5d6) to cut down on time wasted counting up dice.
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Draz

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Re: Decreasing Everything's Hp
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2013, 05:44:17 PM »
The GM has a considerable amount of leeway to influence the speed of combat in the game, without adopting any houserules, just by building NPCs/monsters at different places along the defensive/offensive spectrum.

If you're really worried about combat dragging on with a particular group, you can try to preempt that by building a bunch of "glass cannon" style NPCs.  Prioritize KOMs over KDMs; avoid defensive or healing Tracks; load up on blasty or high-damage Tracks.

Now you've made the NPCs both easier to kill and more threatening, without tipping any of the internal assumptions of the system.

loganic

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Re: Decreasing Everything's Hp
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2013, 12:21:26 PM »
There was another thread that asked what the average number of rounds people experienced in combat, and IIRC, it came out to be about 4-5.
For some people that's a lot.

As mystify has mentioned, many builds are available that hit for a lot.
If you have overly long combat, then introduce timed reinforcements for the enemy, convince your players to stop playing so defensively. 
If your enemy is healing too much, there's a feat for that.
If you enemy has too much damage reduction there's a weapon property and combat manuver for that too.

In all fairness, minor cuts make a big difference. Reduce all characters by 1 hit dice, that'll reduce combat by 1-2 Round. Cut HP by 25%, and you halve the number of rounds. Cutting HP by 50% will reduce the number of rounds by about 75%, which is a little extreme for most people.

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Re: Decreasing Everything's Hp
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2013, 09:11:15 AM »
My two pence on what you can do to cut down on combat time (self-tested; I use these in my own games):

I. No dedicated healers. That's the big one. The whole purpose of a healer is to make things take longer to get hurt. Cut that out and you're fine. This will mean that you'll want the party to reset to max HP between encounters automatically, though.
2. Have people plan out what they're doing ahead of time as much as they can. This works better for some characters and players than others, so don't be too harsh about it. You plan your part out way, waaaay ahead of time, too.
3. Make sure everyone has loads of dice, and can roll them all at once. An attack action should be rolled all at once (with one die specifically designated as the First Attack Die, one as the Second Attack Die, etc.). For things like Necromancer or Elementalist, use 1d8 instead of 2d4, or 1d12 instead of 2d6, treating any roll of one as a two instead. This is less counting.
4. Encourage people to take Weaponised, or give it to everything as a bonus feat. If your players don't want to take the feat and you don't want to give it as a bonus, use it on every attack-based enemy, which cuts down on your own rolling.
5. Make for yourself, and encourage your players to make, quick, handy ability lists. I tend to use index cards for this. Having an easy-to-glance-at list of what you can do with your actions will increase speed of play much more than you'd expect, from personal experience, ESPECIALLY with people who don't have a good memory for game maths.

Hope all this is helpful.
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Draz

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Re: Decreasing Everything's Hp
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2013, 01:03:20 PM »
3. Make sure everyone has loads of dice, and can roll them all at once. An attack action should be rolled all at once (with one die specifically designated as the First Attack Die, one as the Second Attack Die, etc.). For things like Necromancer or Elementalist, use 1d8 instead of 2d4, or 1d12 instead of 2d6, treating any roll of one as a two instead. This is less counting.
4. Encourage people to take Weaponised, or give it to everything as a bonus feat. If your players don't want to take the feat and you don't want to give it as a bonus, use it on every attack-based enemy, which cuts down on your own rolling.

Ugh.  I'd be upset at the (small) damage nerf if I were playing the Necromancer or Elementalist.  I thought the goal here was to make combat shorter?  I suppose replacing 2d4 with 1d10 could work -- at least the player involved is getting a small boost instead of a small nerf.

And ugh.  Weaponized is such a terrible feat.  I suppose giving it as a bonus feat to everyone works ... although Utter Brutes will need something else to spend their Racial feat on in that case.

Grue

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Re: Decreasing Everything's Hp
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2013, 02:31:14 PM »
with Weaponized, if you have a KOM of 4 or higher, you should be coming out on top on average compared to the 1d6 base weapon damage, even more with a higher KOM.

Draz

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Re: Decreasing Everything's Hp
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2013, 02:35:53 PM »
Yeah, I'm not claiming it has no benefit; only that the benefit isn't worth a Feat.

Mystify

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Re: Decreasing Everything's Hp
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2013, 02:47:33 PM »
yeah, the damage increase is very marginal
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