Author Topic: True Symbol--houserule?  (Read 4156 times)

Zaq

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Re: True Symbol--houserule?
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2013, 02:58:37 PM »
Specifically? There's some room to change, definitely, but here's what I remember folks talking about (and since some people are going back and forth between multiple possible characters right now, that skews things a bit, but the group isn't actually going to have ALL of these characters):

Dervish Barb beatstick thing (Dervish/Destruction/unspecified defensive track, probably AA): Swift on turn 1 (the most important turn, of course!) for death dance, Cleave all the time, possibly ESL for gratuitous amounts of mobility, and the player expressed some interest in Words of Power.

Jedi thing (Arcane Secrets/Just Blade/Battle's Tempering): Mystic Focus + Unbearable Lightness of Casting is a pretty solid demand for swifts (sure, TS comes online before UBoC, but whatever). Also, this one's INT-heavy, so he'll want to make Knowledge checks. And he's got Telekinetic Adept, but I bet that's low priority.

Pragmatic duelist thing (Swashbuckler/Professional Soldier/Battle's Tempering): PS gives a swift, but it also eats swifts/immediates like crazy (most traps take one, C2 takes one, and Remote Mines take two). And he wants to have an immediate available for Perfect Defense, maybe Terrible Swift Lash, and possibly Parrying when Lucky Cigarette Case's 2 shots per round don't cut it, though even he acknowledges that Parrying is low on the priority list.

Walking potion shop thing (Serpent/Tactician/Combat Alchemist): This is one of mine. Spellstoring weapon is a pretty constant thing, and it'll be nice to mix Exclusion Principle with the spells I sling around through Spellstoring, rather than one or the other. Also, there's Quinhora Nervi, Knowledge checks, passing around emergency Sweet Springs drinks, and possibly ESL.

Spirit guide thing (Virtue/Mechanist Savant/Air Elemental): Virtue is Virtue, Mechanist Savant places automatons, and the character probably wants Words of Power.

And there's some unformed ideas floating about, but many of them are swift-heavy: Demo Man is swift-heavy on its own, someone expressed interest in both Fortune's Friend and Iron Magi, and on and on we go.

I also think that part of it is that we all tend to want to plan contingencies. It's all well and good to plan out your every action on an ideal turn, but we recognize that you might have to take an extra action here and there to pick up your weapon after being disarmed, stand up, spur on your mount, pop a consumable, ping your Tremorsense, interact with the environment somehow, make a knowledge check, trigger a last-ditch immediate action, or otherwise just rely on more actions than you had originally hoped to spend. It's a buffer against things going wrong, and especially in a new system, none of us want to feel like we're unable to do what we want to do, or that our cool toys are amazing in theory but easily snatched away in practice.

I have mixed feelings about the whole affair, really. But there's a reason I asked about it like this instead of just declaring that it needs a system-level overhaul.
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Narsis

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Re: True Symbol--houserule?
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2013, 05:03:10 PM »
around what level are you guys looking at starting?  cause if you are a while away from hitting level 10, you might want to actually play a bit before deciding whether or not you really need those extra swifts.  you might find some of those abilities aren't as good as you first thought, or that situations don't come up often enough to really need the extra swift.
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Re: True Symbol--houserule?
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2013, 09:32:55 PM »
for some of those builds, yes, true symbol is very helpful. Others are rather light on swift actions, and while an extra swift is far from useless, its not what the build needs. Any of the ones where you go "There is a ton of conditional stuff I may want to spend swift actions on" probably doesn't need it. Others where you saying something like "... and I want words of power", you have to acknowledge that you are spending your relic slot in order to do this additional thing. For instance, the barbarian only needs extra swifts because he is trying to take a bunch of feats that require swifts. The jedi is a build that will benefit from TS eventually, but you can easily swap out your items later, rather than making it a first choice. The duelist is borderline, PS handles its own swift desires really well, and I would happily mix it with circumstantial swift use without trying for 3 swifts a round.  Walking potion shop seems like it can get a good amount of use out of it. However, consider that alchmist itself has several standard action options which would be exclusive with spellstoring, which makes it easier to work in the circumstantial uses.
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Re: True Symbol--houserule?
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2013, 02:51:29 AM »
"Dervish Barb beatstick thing (Dervish/Destruction/unspecified defensive track, probably AA): Swift on turn 1 (the most important turn, of course!) for death dance, Cleave all the time, possibly ESL for gratuitous amounts of mobility, and the player expressed some interest in Words of Power."

This build is lighter on swifts than it initially seems. Lots of the time, you will have difficulty getting in a Cleave every turn, and Dance is one swift per encounter. The other swift uses are from feats, and if you want to take lots of swift-based feats, sure, you want True Symbol, but the build itself doesn't need it. There is a big distinction between "my build inherently eats swifts like vicodin" and "I want to do lots of things with swifts to supplement my build."

"Jedi thing (Arcane Secrets/Just Blade/Battle's Tempering): Mystic Focus + Unbearable Lightness of Casting is a pretty solid demand for swifts (sure, TS comes online before UBoC, but whatever). Also, this one's INT-heavy, so he'll want to make Knowledge checks. And he's got Telekinetic Adept, but I bet that's low priority."

This guy wants lots of swifts...Later. Until level six, he wants one a turn if that. Then he wants one a turn, maybe two circumstantially. By the time he needs to gargle swifts he'll almost be at Relic number two.
If he has a special desire to make knowledge checks every turn, he should take Tactical Insight instead of Tempering, lending knowledge checks more significance, decreasing their action cost and making a very neat combo with Mental Thrust as a move + Insight as a partial move.

"Pragmatic duelist thing (Swashbuckler/Professional Soldier/Battle's Tempering): PS gives a swift, but it also eats swifts/immediates like crazy (most traps take one, C2 takes one, and Remote Mines take two). And he wants to have an immediate available for Perfect Defense, maybe Terrible Swift Lash, and possibly Parrying when Lucky Cigarette Case's 2 shots per round don't cut it, though even he acknowledges that Parrying is low on the priority list."

Soldier sustains itself. The point of all its swift-using abilities with their limited uses per encounter is to allow you to use your swifts for whatever is best tactically, not blow your load as fast as possible every round. Perfect Defence isn't worth a Relic. Knocking an opponent prone once a round isn't worth a Relic. Parrying isn't worth a Relic. All those three together aren't worth two feats and a Relic. This build, like the first, would take care of itself if the player stopped trying to get as many uses for swifts as possible. It is essentially a self-reinforcing cycle; this circumstantial thing might be useful, so you need more swifts per turn, but now you have too many swift slots to use them all per turn, so you need more swift-eaters. Hell, some of these effects are things you could get more reliably and effectively for the same cost; for example, instead of Swift Lash, Perfect Defence and True Symbol, you could take Iron Married, Batter Down and a Vorpal weapon. Now you knock people prone probably multiple times per turn without an action cost while doing extra damage.


Walking potion shop thing (Serpent/Tactician/Combat Alchemist): This is one of mine. Spellstoring weapon is a pretty constant thing, and it'll be nice to mix Exclusion Principle with the spells I sling around through Spellstoring, rather than one or the other. Also, there's Quinhora Nervi, Knowledge checks, passing around emergency Sweet Springs drinks, and possibly ESL.

This one needs True Symbol ASAP. It's the only one so far.


Spirit guide thing (Virtue/Mechanist Savant/Air Elemental): Virtue is Virtue, Mechanist Savant places automatons, and the character probably wants Words of Power.


Ehh? All of these need swifts a couple times per encounter, so how useful True Symbol is depends on how long your encounters last. Virtue's uses are limited, Savant's uses are limited, Air Elemental's uses are limited. Words of Power would be another one of those "swifts sometimes but not always so more swift uses so more swifts" things again. This one could certainly make use of True Symbol, but there are other relics it would enjoy just as much.

Another thing I notice: you seem to be leveling your position here based on the lack of commonality between these builds, but look at...literally everything that isn't a track. Two want Exit Stage Left, two want Words of Power, others want other feats that eat swifts without any real reason for those feats to be on their builds in the first place. And two want to do knowledge checks while having other swift uses, which is fine in moderation, but you usually only need to do one or two per encounter before you've squeezed all the use out of them. (And that would be completely alleviated by switching Tempering for Insight on the Just Blade.)

It seems to me that as you've said, you're all coming to Legend from 3.5, but they're very different systems. In 3.5, power comes from having a spell for every circumstance. In Legend, that's useful, but not worth expending all your non-track resources for every character. You're all looking at feats that work outside of your builds' functions and saying "this will be useful under the right circumstances," then getting upset because you have too many of those circumstantial things packed together to use them all at once...which isn't even how circumstantial gimmicks function. The point of circumstantial uses is that their use is circumstantial; they don't come up every round, or even every encounter.

« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 03:05:42 AM by Exelixi »
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Re: True Symbol--houserule?
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2013, 12:55:28 PM »
Yeah, I agree with exelixi's analysis. It seems to have gone "I can take all of these neat feats that use the light action cost of swift to do neat things", which resulted in "Oh my, everything uses swifts, I need more". If you start out by realizing that abilities that use a swift action are not cheap, then the base builds wouldn't be trying so hard to pick up swift action abilities, and true symbol wouldn't be needed nearly as much
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jared71

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Re: True Symbol--houserule?
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2019, 04:30:12 PM »
For dervish/ destruction. I will have the swift to cleave be part of a swift action if that action was used to rage.

Seems to me a swift can be more valuable than a move. Which is strange because it is suppose to represent less time. I would probably allow an exchange of a move for a swift.

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