Author Topic: Incorporeal  (Read 18035 times)

Mystify

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Re: Incorporeal
« Reply #45 on: July 09, 2015, 12:07:38 AM »
yeah.
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Regitnui

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Re: Incorporeal
« Reply #46 on: July 09, 2015, 02:17:12 PM »
So, are we calling C7 fixed? If so, what are the other problems, and how do we solve them?

C7 and C4 seem done. C1, C5 and C6 haven't raised any flags. Shall we move on to the dev-revised C2&3?
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Mystify

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Re: Incorporeal
« Reply #47 on: July 09, 2015, 02:26:49 PM »
Intangible needs to be inspected closer.
To start, how it interacts with acrobatic adept is unclear. Namely, if you can use both a reflex and a wil lsave against the same attack.
Being good at both is hard, of course.
The second is to examine how much you can boost will saves compared to acrobatic adept. I strongly suspect this is going to be very weak in comparison, especialyl lacking the save boosts that acrobatic adept gets.

for third, as I've commented on the docs, the greater invisibility should be an option, not a flat override, since its not better in every aspect. Namely, you lose duration with it, and being invisible out of combat for long spans seems like something people would resent losing. This is easily cleared up with a tweak to the wording.
I also want to add a swift action to activate the warp, which drops away later, lets say 6th circle.
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Regitnui

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Re: Incorporeal
« Reply #48 on: July 09, 2015, 02:45:59 PM »
Intangible needs to be inspected closer.
To start, how it interacts with acrobatic adept is unclear. Namely, if you can use both a reflex and a wil lsave against the same attack.
Being good at both is hard, of course.
The second is to examine how much you can boost will saves compared to acrobatic adept. I strongly suspect this is going to be very weak in comparison, especialyl lacking the save boosts that acrobatic adept gets.

Simply, Intangible, and other effects like it, should have a condition that you can only use one replacement ability per roll, or players will stack them. It's also true that there's likely only three or four ways of doing that in the game that could be a fun character.

for third, as I've commented on the docs, the greater invisibility should be an option, not a flat override, since its not better in every aspect. Namely, you lose duration with it, and being invisible out of combat for long spans seems like something people would resent losing. This is easily cleared up with a tweak to the wording.
I also want to add a swift action to activate the warp, which drops away later, lets say 6th circle.

As you said, add a 'may' to Fade Away, and it becomes sorted. Phase shift gets "you may add the [warp] descriptor to any of your movements while you remain [faded] as a swift action. This can be activated as a free action at 6th Circle"
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Mystify

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Re: Incorporeal
« Reply #49 on: July 09, 2015, 03:06:01 PM »
Simply, Intangible, and other effects like it, should have a condition that you can only use one replacement ability per roll, or players will stack them. It's also true that there's likely only three or four ways of doing that in the game that could be a fun character.
Should they? I don't know that stacking them is actually problematic, as now you have 3 places you have to invest in significantly to get a good defense. an acrobatic adept can tie up their entire build in seeking our reflex save bonuses. I'm just trying to determine how it should work together at this point.

As you said, add a 'may' to Fade Away, and it becomes sorted. Phase shift gets "you may add the [warp] descriptor to any of your movements while you remain [faded] as a swift action. This can be activated as a free action at 6th Circle"
It would be to your movement for the [Round], if we want to mirror similar abilities.
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chaos_redefined

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Re: Incorporeal
« Reply #50 on: July 09, 2015, 08:00:47 PM »
I looked into save-boosting and skill-boosting a while back, comparing them.  With Acrobatic Adept, you can get them around the same for reflex saves, but to the best of my knowledge, there is no such boost for will saves.  Would adding the +lvl/4 bonus to Incorporeal break anything and fix the problem?

Also, remember, due to the availability of larger item and deflection bonuses for AC, AC scales much faster than reflex and will saves anyway.  At level 20, for AC, you can have level, KDM, +7 deflection (from a track), +7 item (track or artifact masterwork heavy armor), +2 from blacksmith and +1 from guardian.  In comparison, at level 20, for reflex you can get level (with acrobatic adept and a good base save), a stat, +2 from the resilient property, +1 from a feat, and +2 from the shield amulet.  (Shield Amulet currently stacks with resilient, although I suspect it should be typed).  That's a lot less stuff.

Grue

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Re: Incorporeal
« Reply #51 on: July 09, 2015, 09:28:08 PM »
small note, the heavy/ light armor distinction disappears for magical armor. lesser armor grants a +2 item bonus to AC, greater +3 etc.

Regitnui

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Re: Incorporeal
« Reply #52 on: July 10, 2015, 02:41:02 AM »
So the will save replacement seems to be fair, if not as well supported. Shall we call Incorporeal done?
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Re: Incorporeal
« Reply #53 on: July 10, 2015, 08:22:16 AM »
My objection was that it is not well supported enough to function properly.
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Re: Incorporeal
« Reply #54 on: July 10, 2015, 08:57:21 AM »
Well, it's easily enough removed of you think that. The accompanying saving throw bonus can be removed or added on to From the Shadows, which will then become C2 in full.
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Re: Incorporeal
« Reply #55 on: July 10, 2015, 09:16:18 AM »
It can, but that is a very significant power boost. +5 to will saves by 20 is a significant boost.
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Re: Incorporeal
« Reply #56 on: July 10, 2015, 11:59:16 AM »
It can, but that is a very significant power boost. +5 to will saves by 20 is a significant boost.

So let me get this straight. You're worried about a "very significant power boost" to will saves not functioning properly because few other methods of boosting will saves exist? If the boost is so significant, that's the only boost you need, so you don't need to get other tracks and feats to supplement it? It seems like you're worried about something that's not really there.
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Re: Incorporeal
« Reply #57 on: July 10, 2015, 12:13:47 PM »
It can, but that is a very significant power boost. +5 to will saves by 20 is a significant boost.

So let me get this straight. You're worried about a "very significant power boost" to will saves not functioning properly because few other methods of boosting will saves exist? If the boost is so significant, that's the only boost you need, so you don't need to get other tracks and feats to supplement it? It seems like you're worried about something that's not really there.
No, I mean the will save boost, as a will save boost, is very strong, and effects the balance of the track, while also being nessecary for a will save AC to matter.
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Re: Incorporeal
« Reply #58 on: July 10, 2015, 01:11:39 PM »
It can, but that is a very significant power boost. +5 to will saves by 20 is a significant boost.

So let me get this straight. You're worried about a "very significant power boost" to will saves not functioning properly because few other methods of boosting will saves exist? If the boost is so significant, that's the only boost you need, so you don't need to get other tracks and feats to supplement it? It seems like you're worried about something that's not really there.
No, I mean the will save boost, as a will save boost, is very strong, and affects the balance of the track, while also being necessary for a will save AC to matter.

So our solution is to either remove it or rewire the track. Personally, I like the flavour of it to a degree where I'd rather see it removed than weakened. I mean, a ghost disappearing to dodge an attack? It's one of the standard moves of intangible-at-will characters and a defining characteristic of ghosts.
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Re: Incorporeal
« Reply #59 on: July 10, 2015, 09:18:45 PM »
In that case...  level + KDM check.  +1 for each odd circle you possess in this track.

Or a skill check, if you guys can see any relevant skills that work here.  Stealth maybe?