Author Topic: Show Fighter  (Read 4143 times)

Mystify

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Show Fighter
« on: July 03, 2015, 09:15:28 PM »
Pancakes Show Fighter
Intended for inclusion in an upcoming Core revision, this track is popularly known as "Pancakes" among devs due to misreading of its original name and 1st circle.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2015, 09:17:08 PM by Mystify »
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Zejety

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Re: Show Fighter
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2015, 06:25:16 AM »
I know that this track has been in development for quite a while. Even though I'm personally not very invested in Legend anymore, i would love to see this come to completion, seeing how it was originally a contest entry by myself (heavily edited by the pros since then of course).
I can't comment on balance at all since I've played way to little Legend for that but I'll gladly comment on any fluff and general gameplay concerns.

chaos_redefined

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Re: Show Fighter
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2015, 08:40:39 AM »
First circle: I assume this gets overriden by Discipline of the Serpent if you have both.  All the abilities look fine, although I do agree with the side-notes that it should be KOM or level, whichever is higher, or some similar wording.

Second circle: That is now 3 tracks which offer a +3 bonus to combat maneuver DCs. Not sure if it's a problem, but just pointing it out.  A Rage/Serpent/Show Fighter gets a +9 total to combat maneuver DCs.

Third circle: Seems fine, although I do have to ask...  if you attack an enemy as part of, say, the Trip combat maneuver, can you disarm and trip them at the same time?

Fourth Circle: Seems fine.

Fifth Circle: Seems fine.

Sixth Circle: It's pretty late, but -3 is a sizable penalty.  I'm worried about stunlocking, but someone else can declare if its out of the question...

Seventh Circle: Samwon is right, this could be done as part of the same action as A Bit of Flair, and I don't think it would break anything.  This character is probably already considering a True Symbol anyway.

Mystify

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Re: Show Fighter
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2015, 08:47:25 AM »
We should probably create a bonus type for DC boosters to limit stacking. Combat manuevers tend to  be less problematic for it, but stunlocks are possible with high enough DCs elsewhere.
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chaos_redefined

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Re: Show Fighter
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2015, 10:51:43 AM »
In this case, the penalty at 6th circle is the bigger problem in my opinion.  Even if it comes online later, a -3 to saves is pretty big.

In comparison, the Rage/Serpent/Show Fighter character's biggest defensive feature is temporary HP and the bonuses to saves from Rage.  Unless there's a good system for rage cycling available, I don't think that's gonna keep up.

(The closest I've found to passable rage-cycling is with Vigor, which relies on a consistent DC 35 skill check.  So, I think we're safe on that.)

Mystify

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Re: Show Fighter
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2015, 03:01:21 PM »
rage/serpent/show fighter is also only 3 tracks, so you have room for another track or items to provide a defense.
-3 penalty to saves is reasonable by itself. Its when it stacks with other penalties in the system that it becomes problematic.
The solution to these things is not to purge all new tracks of bonuses, but to add a proper stacking system for it- which probably means adding types to these things, and types to existing abilities, so it stays within expected bounds.
The flip side is that we want synergy; serpent+show fighter /should/ be a good idea if you want to focus on combat maneuvers. So, we don't want to be indiscriminate with adding types.
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chaos_redefined

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Re: Show Fighter
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2015, 07:46:12 PM »
Full Buy In with one defensive track seems like it's still glass-cannony.

And yeah.  My problem is with stacking penalties at this point, not with stacking bonuses.  Unless Serpent can reliably get 8+ imbalances/turn with that stacking (in which case, Nauseate-lock)

So, what other tracks have penalties?

Mystify

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Re: Show Fighter
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2015, 08:00:17 PM »
Undead gets a passive aura. [Energy drained] penalizes it. [Shaken] penalized it. [Sickened] penalizes it. alchemist can inflict a -2 penalty.
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chaos_redefined

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Re: Show Fighter
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2015, 09:41:55 PM »
Would tagging Show Fighter 6, Undead's Aura and Alchemist's -2 as [Track] penalties fix things?  Or is it insufficient?

Also...  would it break things to allow feats that refer to Discipline of the Serpent as a prereq to also allow this track?  ("This track may be used as Discipline of the Serpent for the purpose of meeting prerequisites")
« Last Edit: July 05, 2015, 09:51:25 PM by chaos_redefined »

Mystify

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Re: Show Fighter
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2015, 10:11:26 PM »
I think we need a more comprehensive analysis of what exists in the system that is untyped and figuring out the best way to handle it.

spectacular beats is specifically refering to discipline of the serpant's 1st circle, so that doesn't make sense. Way of the gun is also refering to serpent's ceaseless flow.
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chaos_redefined

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Re: Show Fighter
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2015, 10:38:15 PM »
Good point.  Would either of these break anything then:

Gun Showmanship [Combat]
Prereq: Show Fighter
You may activate the Disarm and Trip combat maneuvers, while wielding a ranged weapon, making a single ranged attack instead of a melee attack. You may use the King of the Hill ability, if you have it, with ranged attacks, except with the Bull Rush option.

Discipline of the Showman [Combat]
Prereq: Show Fighter, Discipline of the Serpent
When you use the King of the Hill ability, you may treat the attack as a hit into the Close Meridian, Neutralize, or Open Gate combat maneuvers, if you possess them. If you possess the Can't Touch This ability, opponents who fail their save against Close Meridian become sickened for 2 rounds instead of 1. If you possess the Can't Touch This ability, opponents who fail their save against the Neuatralize combat maneuver take a -2 penalty to attack rolls for one round.  If you possess the Can't Touch This ability, when a creature fails its save against the Open Gate maneuver, it receives a -2 penalty to DCs and skill checks for one round.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 02:08:47 AM by chaos_redefined »

Mystify

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Re: Show Fighter
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2015, 11:00:46 PM »
king of the hill also allows bull rush, and ranged bull rush is something to avoid.

I like discipline of the showman, though the specific bonuses need some work. all of them basically make the combat manuevers numerically better, while the normal can't touch this abilities improve the combat manuevers sideways - checked on disarm, battered on trip, hp reduction on grapple, blown away on bull rush. None of them are just a simple numeric boost, they make them more interesting.
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chaos_redefined

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Re: Show Fighter
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2015, 02:09:59 AM »
Fixed up those problems.  Open Gate goes for symmetry, Neutralize hits attack rolls to go with damage, and Close Meridian...  I just improved the duration.  I would have gone [Battered] but trip already does it.

Draz

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Re: Show Fighter
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2015, 04:46:34 AM »
Sometimes I've wondered if the most overpowered part of this track is actually the "take 10 on all Interaction skills" ability at C5. With a Charisma-focused character, that can really turn many social encounters into auto-wins.

Mystify

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Re: Show Fighter
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2015, 08:27:39 AM »
esoterica radica 1 can do the same thing. Sure, its only 2 of them, but you get to choose which skills you use. 2 probably gives you the flexibility to dodge a good defense. I can also design characters with so much social skill that they can literally never loose a social encounter. They may not win, esp. if they are fighting their doppleganger, but they can't lose.
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