Author Topic: Warlock Class – Binding, Cursing, and Summoning  (Read 12526 times)

GreyMantle

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Re: Warlock Class – Binding, Cursing, and Summoning
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2012, 09:35:32 PM »
Yeah, I was somewhat misreading the text for Maladict. I don't think it's inordinately convoluted. It's still a bit on the complex side, but it seems neat.


Regarding Word of Pain's OP: Removing the 1d6 still might not be enough. You could do something like 1/2 Cha. Or you could give the target a new save each turn to see if it will be Word of Pain for that turn. That would be a bit unwieldy, but it fits the flavor of the target struggling to thrust the fiend out of her body.


Regarding Angel Summoners: I was picturing it like this: Regardless of what he's summoning, the Warlock is still binding other sentient creatures to his will. He might be doing it for The Greater Good, but his actions are still kind of Morally Grey at best. As such, he's unlikely to trust anything he summons, because, at the very least, it's probably going to want to escape. Even if you're some paragon of virtue, if a random mortal summons you to do his bidding, you're likely to be at least slightly resentful, right?

You could make another class that has as its schtick the summoning of willing outsiders.

Side note: I think it would be neat if [summoned] and [bound] creatures could do things like pass messages and open doors. Limiting them to Move, Attack, Special does help with balance, but it really hurts the verisimilitude.

On a similar note, I wish some of the spells lasted longer than just [Encounter]. That way, you could use them to spy on people, or act as watchdogs, or collect alchemical ingredients, or... That could almost just be the province of Feats, though.

DragoonWraith

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Re: Warlock Class – Binding, Cursing, and Summoning
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2012, 10:12:56 PM »
I mean, personally, I'd probably allow things like opening doors to be a part of movement or whatever.

Passing messages is definitely something I'd want to allow, but I'm not sure how rules for it would work. But the Succubus, in particular, is intended to be used for out of combat things like that.
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Hyozo

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Re: Warlock Class – Binding, Cursing, and Summoning
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2012, 09:06:41 PM »
Would it be reasonable to make the damage over time from Word of Pain equal to the number of circles you have in Convoker?
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DragoonWraith

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Re: Warlock Class – Binding, Cursing, and Summoning
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2012, 10:20:49 PM »
I'd personally been considering 2/circle, actually. But I think that /circle definitely scales better, whether it's one or two per.
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Hyozo

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Re: Warlock Class – Binding, Cursing, and Summoning
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2012, 12:02:00 AM »
2/circle seems like it would actually get even more excessive than Charisma modifier at later levels.
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Re: Warlock Class – Binding, Cursing, and Summoning
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2012, 09:11:36 AM »
Yeah, probably. I dunno, I want it to count, but not be too much. One means that the Convoker can basically give his entire team +1 damage per action (not even per attack) against one opponent as a standard (Will negates). That doesn't seem all that impressive.
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Re: Warlock Class – Binding, Cursing, and Summoning
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2012, 11:41:40 AM »
I like the summoning track but i would think to expand it so you have  choice first level to summon either demons, undead, angels, animals, plants or constructs. Maybe this can be done with a summoning template and a list to choose from for adding abilities and types?
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Re: Warlock Class – Binding, Cursing, and Summoning
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2012, 03:08:11 PM »
I like the summoning track but i would think to expand it so you have  choice first level to summon either demons, undead, angels, animals, plants or constructs. Maybe this can be done with a summoning template and a list to choose from for adding abilities and types?
that would boil down to giving them a racial subtype ([undead], [construct], etc.) and changing the fluff.

GreyMantle

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Re: Warlock Class – Binding, Cursing, and Summoning
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2012, 04:23:39 PM »
You could do something like this:

Each spell just has one "Summon" spell. It reads something along the lines of
"You summon a creature with one of the following sets of special abilities and traits: " And then you'd have that level's list of creatures, essentially.

You could also choose to summon a creature that had multiple lower level abilities and traits.

That change I think would increase the Warlock's versatility a bit, and make it more of a generic summoner, which most people seem to want.

However, I don't think making this specific class capable of summoning plants, animals, or constructs is an especially good idea. The Convoker track just does not fit at all with those creatures. It necessitates the use of some "spirit" type creature.''

Sets of summoning that I could see working coherently with the Warlock's three tracks:
Fiend summoning
Angel or "Celestial" summoning
Undead summoning
Spirit summoning or something: This would include elementals, fey, nature spirits...
We could also have some sort of Lovecraftian Star summoning or whatever. The 4E implementation sucked butts, unsurprisingly, but the concept is still a very cool one.

Now, making this adjustment wouldn't really mean that much more work for the Summoning track. Just add in a bit that you have to choose what type of creatures you summon when you first get the track, and that all summons have that specific subtype.

However, if you wanted to be really cute, you could add subtype-specific summons. The Kython one that you currently have seems fairly Fiend-specific (although potentially a Ghost) could have abilities like that too. You could even have Invocations that are subtype specific, which would be neato.

But all that would be a lot of extra work.




Also, I would recommend not giving Warlocks access to every Invocation on the list. It means that adding extra Invocations makes every Warlock noticeably more powerful. It's the same problem that Clerics and Druids had in 3.x.

I could see just giving them x invocations/classification. Or you could do it like a wizard's spellbook, where you learn y invocations/classification (where y<x), but you can learn more invocations via scrolls or old tomes or something.

DragoonWraith

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Re: Warlock Class – Binding, Cursing, and Summoning
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2012, 09:55:51 PM »
The summoning mechanic and spells were intended as an exploration of summoning in general and a prototype for how it might be done. The Warlock was a showcase of these mechanics, but not, in and of itself, intended to cover every sort of thing you might want to summon. I would apply similar mechanics to undead (though not summoning because that irks me greatly, unless they're spirits), and more-or-less identical mechanics to a summoner of other sorts of creatures – but I don't see the Warlock as the one who actually has those spells on his spell list.

As for having one spell with a "list" of creatures, I'm not sure I like that idea. You get 3 spells/circle; use them. I dunno, it does need testing – it may be that it's too limiting as-is. But I suspect it is in line with other spellcasters in Legend.
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Decatus

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Re: Warlock Class – Binding, Cursing, and Summoning
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2012, 02:24:12 PM »
DW, I just wanted to jump in here and say I really appreciate the amount of work you put into the Warlock. 

As to Word of Pain, wouldn't 1 damage/circle work? It seems like that would be the easiest way to balance it, as it parallels to the Rage track fairly easily; also, keep in mind that while 7 extra damage doesn't seem like a huge amount, on a full attack you're adding 21 to 28 extra DPR at higher levels. I think that just that brings it roughly in line with the other damage tracks via other classes, and that's not even taking account of the summons and Maladiction.

I did have a question, though. Word of Pain says that whenever something takes damage, it takes extra X damage. So, does word of pain deal the same type of damage as the other attack? What about the case for your HP reduction abilities? Would it simply deal damage, or would it deal additional amounts of HP reduction?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 02:30:09 PM by Decatus »

DragoonWraith

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Re: Warlock Class – Binding, Cursing, and Summoning
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2012, 01:33:17 AM »
DW, I just wanted to jump in here and say I really appreciate the amount of work you put into the Warlock. 
Woot, thanks!

As to Word of Pain, wouldn't 1 damage/circle work? It seems like that would be the easiest way to balance it, as it parallels to the Rage track fairly easily; also, keep in mind that while 7 extra damage doesn't seem like a huge amount, on a full attack you're adding 21 to 28 extra DPR at higher levels. I think that just that brings it roughly in line with the other damage tracks via other classes, and that's not even taking account of the summons and Maladiction.
Ah, you're misreading it: it deals its damage per action that causes damage, not per attack. A full attack is one action, and therefore you'd only deal the damage once.

1/circle/attack might be something to consider though.

I did have a question, though. Word of Pain says that whenever something takes damage, it takes extra X damage. So, does word of pain deal the same type of damage as the other attack? What about the case for your HP reduction abilities? Would it simply deal damage, or would it deal additional amounts of HP reduction?
Simply deals damage, and at least in my head it was irresistible "curse" damage (similar to how the 3.5 Warlock's Eldritch Blast did irresistible, er, eldritch? damage). I don't know for sure that this is a valid thing to do in Legend, though.
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Re: Warlock Class – Binding, Cursing, and Summoning
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2012, 01:36:36 AM »
Legend has a lot of ways to flat out resist damage, so an irresistible damage type doesn't make sense. Being untyped doesn't seem to be much of an issue though.
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DragoonWraith

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Re: Warlock Class – Binding, Cursing, and Summoning
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2012, 01:37:52 AM »
Yeah, untyped is pretty much what I meant.
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Decatus

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Re: Warlock Class – Binding, Cursing, and Summoning
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2012, 06:48:22 PM »
DW, I just wanted to jump in here and say I really appreciate the amount of work you put into the Warlock. 
Woot, thanks!

As to Word of Pain, wouldn't 1 damage/circle work? It seems like that would be the easiest way to balance it, as it parallels to the Rage track fairly easily; also, keep in mind that while 7 extra damage doesn't seem like a huge amount, on a full attack you're adding 21 to 28 extra DPR at higher levels. I think that just that brings it roughly in line with the other damage tracks via other classes, and that's not even taking account of the summons and Maladiction.
Ah, you're misreading it: it deals its damage per action that causes damage, not per attack. A full attack is one action, and therefore you'd only deal the damage once.

1/circle/attack might be something to consider

I did have a question, though. Word of Pain says that whenever something takes damage, it takes extra X damage. So, does word of pain deal the same type of damage as the other attack? What about the case for your HP reduction abilities? Would it simply deal damage, or would it deal additional amounts of HP reduction?
Simply deals damage, and at least in my head it was irresistible "curse" damage (similar to how the 3.5 Warlock's Eldritch Blast did irresistible, er, eldritch? damage). I don't know for sure that this is a valid thing to do in Legend, though.

Derp on the whole damage per action thing, lol. The big bad philo major who can't read.

On the subject of the damage per round though, do you thing my suggestion would cause a huge amount of imbalance, or does it seem reasonable given the way I read it? I mean, it seemed ok to me, especially because it's buffing the entire party. On the other hand, that could cause a huge amount of damage that the 1/action schtick completely avoids, while still letting you contribute to everyone's damage.

 Thanks for clearing up my misconceptions. I'm looking forward to testing this out when I get to run a game.